6 replies to this topic

[Deamonition]

I know this sounds intense and some of you will spit on this idea but anyway, I will say what I think anyway. I know this idea has almost no chance of being implemented, but still :

First of all, ELO is a ranking system created for 1v1 games, Chess to name only this one. When you take a ranking system designed for 1v1 games and then put it in a teamplay game, it cannot work, because the result of the match (win or loss) is not depending only on 1 player, but the whole team.

The more people in the team, the less impact has each individual players. Therefore, using the ELO system, based here on wins and losses, is ridiculous, as the wins and losses are just PARTLY due to your skills. You could be a pro, but if you are teamed with 7 new players, and you all go against a team of 8 "average" guys, you will utterly lose. That match would then reduce your ELO, but that would be mostly due to the other guys, and not really you. So it's dumb that your ELO goes down because of somebody else...

To those of you that would say that this system (ELO) is used in other teamplay games (say League of Legends), are you really thinking that it works well in them? I admit that I have not tried them all, but I have indeed played other games based on the ELO system and it's always the same frustating situation. You could be good, decent, average... but the game could team you with players less skilled than you, it greatly reduces your chances of winning. And since ELO is mostly based on Win/Loss, this means you are doomed to be of the same ELO than whoever you are teamed with.

Moreover, ELO system has the disadvantage of putting new players at the same ELO as average players. That creates the frustration that players that are truly just "average", even when having 1000 games behind them, could be teamed with brand new players. And while it is possible that some new players get the hang of this game quicker than others, most of the new players are not yet used to the mechanics and just fail. It's normal. But that will still ruin experienced average players gameplay, because they start at their ELO range.

Thanks for reading

TL;DR : ELO was not made for teamplay games, so stop using it.

[Deamonition]

I'm gonna bump this thread, to maybe have the input from other players.

[Syllogy]

Actually, it's been used in many team sports in the US including Football, Baseball, and Basketball. Dozens of video games have used it, and it is also used in eSports.

Elo is a much more practical system for Multiplayer games than you might think.

With the new Weightclass Tolerance going in on Tuesday, we will see much more balanced matches in terms of Weight with less emphasis on Elo. We'll see how that goes.

Edited by Syllogy, 13 April 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[Deamonition]

Syllogy, on 13 April 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Actually, it's been used in many team sports in the US including Football, Baseball, and Basketball. Dozens of video games have used it, and it is also used in eSports.

Elo is a much more practical system for Multiplayer games than you might think.

With the new Weightclass Tolerance going in on Tuesday, we will see much more balanced matches in terms of Weight with less emphasis on Elo. We'll see how that goes.

Are you talking about some player skill rating system in sports? Cause in no way the team standings work with Elo... So your example is not that much relevant.

Also, yes there SHOULD be an improvement with weight balance, but I am not really confident they will fix the randomness of what kind of players are included in each team.

[Syllogy]

Deamonition, on 13 April 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Are you talking about some player skill rating system in sports? Cause in no way the team standings work with Elo... So your example is not that much relevant.

No, I am talking about team based calculations. The NCAA uses the Elo system to rank teams and to match teams for Championship and Bowl games.

Elo is also used to rank teams in Major League Baseball and in World Football.

My example is very much relevant.

Edited by Syllogy, 13 April 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Loc Nar]

Also should be noted that new pilot's default Elo ratings are going to be lowered soon as well. The system has not had one adjustment done to it since being implemented, and it has been bugged as well. I think we need to wait and see how it really works first...

[Deamonition]

Syllogy, on 13 April 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

No, I am talking about team based calculations. The NCAA uses the Elo system to rank teams and to match teams for Championship and Bowl games.

Elo is also used to rank teams in Major League Baseball and in World Football.

My example is very much relevant.

Ok well apologies as these are not sports I follow much (I'm more into ice hockey and boxing). But, your example is mostly relevant for 8v8 premades. Doesn't represent what is happening in pugs. Sports team have the same players throughout the season (or well, mostly). And I would think that the highest amount of frustration comes from pug players. Pre-organised teams don't have the same problem, they CHOOSE who they play with. In pugs, you don't. Matchmaking does it for you. So if it fails, you're in for a boring match.

So, to conclude, while you bring more examples of where Elo systems are used, I am not a big fan of that system for team based games.

Again, it was first created for 1v1 and every video game I played (let's forget sports a little) that was using Elo to match players together was very frustrating.

Therefore, I will stick to my idea that the best matchmaking systems are/should not use Elo.

Loc Nar, on 13 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Also should be noted that new pilot's default Elo ratings are going to be lowered soon as well. The system has not had one adjustment done to it since being implemented, and it has been bugged as well. I think we need to wait and see how it really works first...

Well I don't have the formula in front of me, but somebody said that Elo is a concept where the sum of all is a constant. If you lower the new players, you must increase some others... If all of this is true, I highly doubt that you can do it (lower the noobs) and if you can, I highly doubt that it will change something.... But we'll see.

Edited by Deamonition, 13 April 2013 - 09:02 AM.