70 replies to this topic

[Donnie Silveray]

I agree that the pods of the Timberwolf should be their own separate pods due to their obscene size and position on the mech. There are more easy solutions to resolve this than counter intuitive justifications or purist intentions. TT is just that, tabletop. It's all flat statistics. I doubt TT has board rules for the shape and size of every single mech wheres MWO is a simulation shooter with TT statistics. Therefore, unless the MWO Timberwolf quite literally is DESIGNED to have the missiles in the side torsos (think Hunchback) then I highly doubt PGI will do so.

PGI are probably not dumb on this particular issue. The thought process must pass their mind:
"This mech has ears and arms. TT lists it in the side torso. But those things are huge targets making for easy shooting, coring, and detatching arms. How to resolve?"

1) Adjust the concept (cue fan outcry)
2) Adjust game (cue programmer crying)
3) Stay pure (cue non purist outcry)

If I want this mech in and not hobble it insanely I'd probably consider engineering the game to support at least an extra set of hitboxes and work with the balance team on armor distribution. This solution would open up a whole new set of mechs that have independent pods that can be shot off. But since the mechlab is a pretty core function, this is risky and could pose lots of trouble. But in the end it will resolve the most issues at once rather than a half assed justification.

If I was lazy and didn't care, I would just slap the missiles into the side torso and maybe concept the mech to have the thing be more of a Mad Dog over a Timberwolf.

[Taemien]

I don't see why the 'ears' can't be the RT/LT, they would have 50pts of armor in MWO and 86kph movement would keep it alive long enough. Its the Loki's and their 34pt armor CT that is going to suffer. But the Loki is a glass cannon. It will need to rely on the Madcat's tanking ability for support.

[Royalewithcheese]

Taemien, on 13 April 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

I don't see why the 'ears' can't be the RT/LT, they would have 50pts of armor in MWO and 86kph movement would keep it alive long enough. Its the Loki's and their 34pt armor CT that is going to suffer. But the Loki is a glass cannon. It will need to rely on the Madcat's tanking ability for support.

I think the issue is that if those things are part of the torsos, the Timber Wolf itself will be a candidate for glass cannon-hood. But we'll have to see the actual model to tell.

In any case, I heartily look forward to lurms finally being viable (as a brawling weapon that you splat people point-blank with.)

[Vrekgar]

KinLuu, on 13 April 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

It would break the current mech building system completely.

Additional critspace. Additional armor. Additional hitboxes. I guess it will just be the Timber Wolfs weakness, kind of like the giant side torsos are the awesomes weakness as well.

Who says it has to grant additional crits? It could just be an empty slot where it holds however many weapons your mech can mount in them and it doesnt grant any extra crits. So its purely just a weapon mount location.

As for armor, well this isnt such a bad thing. It has armor itself which takes away from the tonnage available for everything else. And if its linked off the Side torso it would be blown off along with the arm when the torso goes.

[Khanahar]

Won't destroying the two side torsos necessary to kill a Mad Cat take (25+16)*2= 82 damage but just coring it with CT shots take 36+23= 59 damage? Since it has a huge center torso, the side torso vulnerability would be a pretty minor issue.

I, for one, wouldn't go rampaging if the side torso crits got seperated into weapon pods and proper side torsos. But I also wouldn't mind if they just treated the weapon pods as the side torsos (and modelled it to reflect that blowing them off would take out the arm attached) just as has already been done for the Hunchback, Atlas, Raven, and some Awesome variants.

[Ravenspyre]

Royalewithcheese, on 13 April 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

I think the issue is that if those things are part of the torsos, the Timber Wolf itself will be a candidate for glass cannon-hood. But we'll have to see the actual model to tell.

In any case, I heartily look forward to lurms finally being viable (as a brawling weapon that you splat people point-blank with.)

Well, the image I've seen (if it's official I dunno) was this one here, so we can already get an idea of what the profile will look like, and since it's a 75 ton heavy, that's a big profile.

[Khanahar]

Vrekgar, on 13 April 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Who says it has to grant additional crits? It could just be an empty slot where it holds however many weapons your mech can mount in them and it doesnt grant any extra crits. So its purely just a weapon mount location.

To make it balanced (and preserve the canon loadouts) you would have to split the crit slots and armor from the side torso with the missile racks. The advantage would be more hit locations (more spreading of damage) but the disadvantage would be roughly half the necessary damage to kill its LRM racks. Which could actually be a nice way of balancing out the potentially game-breaking Mad Cat SSRM6 boat that keeps us up at night. Or they could balance streaks.

Edited by Khanahar, 13 April 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Ravenspyre]

Khanahar, on 13 April 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Won't destroying the two side torsos necessary to kill a Mad Cat take (25+16)*2= 82 damage but just coring it with CT shots take 36+23= 59 damage? Since it has a huge center torso, the side torso vulnerability would be a pretty minor issue.

I, for one, wouldn't go rampaging if the side torso crits got seperated into weapon pods and proper side torsos. But I also wouldn't mind if they just treated the weapon pods as the side torsos (and modelled it to reflect that blowing them off would take out the arm attached) just as has already been done for the Hunchback, Atlas, Raven, and some Awesome variants.

The problem isn't where it would be easiest to shoot, the problem would be how big a profile they present as a target. And since they are so high up on the mech it wouldn't take much. And while you make 86 damage sound like a lot, that's pidgeon feed with a lot of people sporting Ac10s and AC20s lately.

[Khanahar]

Accalia, on 13 April 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Well, the image I've seen (if it's official I dunno) was this one here, so we can already get an idea of what the profile will look like, and since it's a 75 ton heavy, that's a big profile.

[fake Mad Cat image]

That's from the Fan Art section. And, while cool, it is definitely NOT an official depiction of the Mad Cat (the name under which it will doubtless be released.) It's also not the prime variant, which is the main subject of debate here.

[Ravenspyre]

Khanahar, on 13 April 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

To make it balanced (and preserve the canon loadouts) you would have to split the crit slots and armor from the side torso with the missile racks. The advantage would be more hit locations (more spreading of damage) but the disadvantage would be roughly half the necessary damage to kill its LRM racks. Which could actually be a nice way of balancing out the potentially game-breaking Mad Cat SSRM6 boat that keeps us up at night. Or they could balance streaks.

LOL part of me hopes the Timber Wolf variant (think it's Delta?) with the SSRM6s in the back for all those pesky lights that like to circle strafe makes it in, but then again I know that would cause a humongous uproar

Edited by Accalia, 13 April 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Ravenspyre]

Khanahar, on 13 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

That's from the Fan Art section. And, while cool, it is definitely NOT an official depiction of the Mad Cat (the name under which it will doubtless be released.) It's also not the prime variant, which is the main subject of debate here.

Well even if it is a fan depiction seems to be in line with the standard design of mechs in the game that is being sent for. And either way still doesn't deny the profile of the mech. Furthermore, the IS call it the Mad Cat, not the Clans

[Khanahar]

Accalia, on 13 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

The problem isn't where it would be easiest to shoot, the problem would be how big a profile they present as a target. And since they are so high up on the mech it wouldn't take much. And while you make 86 damage sound like a lot, that's pidgeon feed with a lot of people sporting Ac10s and AC20s lately.

Not saying it's a lot... just that it's a lot more than the CT. It's actually remarkably little for a 'mech that size, but I suppose that's how the Clans roll. Compare that 59 and 82 to the 111 and 152 you'd need to do the same to a max armor Cataphract.

And yes, the high mounting will matter. But I don't think it will break the chassis. (And frankly, it would be fine with me if the Mad Cat were slightly underpowered on release to mitigate the glut of them we will see then at any rate.)

Accalia, on 13 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

LOL part of me hopes the Timber Wolf variant (think it's Delta?) with the SSRM6s in the back for all those pesky lights that liek toe circle strafe makes it in, but then again I know that would cause a humongous uproar

Accalia, on 13 April 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Well even if it is a fan depiction seems to be in line with the standard design of mechs in the game that is being sent for. And either way still doesn't deny the profile of the mech. Furthermore, the IS call it the Mad Cat, not the Clans

"A" variant, I think. And that's what I imagine the Fan Art depicts... seems to be firing PPCs and seems to be armed with SSRMs. But he switched them to the front like the Centurion or the Atlas.

And I think Mad Cat will be the release name... everything so far suggests we will be introduced to the invasion from an IS POV, not a Clan one.

Can't wait though. :-)

Edited by Khanahar, 13 April 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Ravenspyre]

Khanahar, on 13 April 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Not saying it's a lot... just that it's a lot more than the CT. It's actually remarkably little for a 'mech that size, but I suppose that's how the Clans roll. Compare that 59 and 82 to the 111 and 152 you'd need to do the same to a max armor Cataphract.

And yes, the high mounting will matter. But I don't think it will break the chassis. (And frankly, it would be fine with me if the Mad Cat were slightly underpowered on release to mitigate the glut of them we will see then at any rate.)

Well, I agree that it will probably be the most popular mech when it finally comes out, though honestly I am kind of tired of seeing fields of jaegers now doing their suicide AC spam charges lately anyways. But I chalk that up to the fact ACs need more balance tweaks.

Quote

"A" variant, I think. And that's what I imagine the Fan Art depicts... seems to be firing PPCs and seems to be armed with SSRMs. But he switched them to the front like the Centurion or the Atlas.

And I think Mad Cat will be the release name... everything so far suggests we will be introduced to the invasion from an IS POV, not a Clan one.

Can't wait though. :-)

The arms in the default are ER LLs, so that's as likely as them being PPCs or ER PPCs (whcih I would probably switch the ER LLs to anyways). As far as the missile pods, considering how worthless LRMs and SSRMs are in the current ECM or die state of the game, I would say he swapped them to SRM6s just for dumbfire capabilities and was done with it (again something I would do because LRM and SSRM are currently worthless with the abundance of ECM lately).

Edited by Accalia, 13 April 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Accalia, on 13 April 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Well, I agree that it will probably be the most popular mech when it finally comes out, though honestly I am kind of tired of seeing fields of jaegers now doing their suicide AC spam charges lately anyways. But I chalk that up to the fact ACs need more balance tweaks.

The issue with AC40 Jagers everywhere is that it is one of the ~3 configs (the others being the KC20 and the DDC) that are actually good close-range specialists at the moment. The main balance change ACs need is a buff to everything that isn't an AC/20 or a UAC/5.

Of course, anyone who thinks anything is unbalanced at this stage in the game is in for a nasty shock if clan technology is anything like it is in BT Think 20-ton mechs that rival Stalkers for firepower, LRM splat builds, or assaults capable of fielding the equivalent of 3-4 gauss rifles backed up by a hilarious number of large laser-equivalents.

[IceSerpent]

Khanahar, on 13 April 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Won't destroying the two side torsos necessary to kill a Mad Cat take (25+16)*2= 82 damage but just coring it with CT shots take 36+23= 59 damage? Since it has a huge center torso, the side torso vulnerability would be a pretty minor issue.

I, for one, wouldn't go rampaging if the side torso crits got seperated into weapon pods and proper side torsos. But I also wouldn't mind if they just treated the weapon pods as the side torsos (and modelled it to reflect that blowing them off would take out the arm attached) just as has already been done for the Hunchback, Atlas, Raven, and some Awesome variants.

Do a simple test - drop on training grounds, find a Catapult, and start shooting at its "ears" from different angles. Notice how easy it is to hit them regardless of the angle or distance. If that Cat was a Timer Wolf, taking out both ears would kill it dead.

[Ravenspyre]

Royalewithcheese, on 13 April 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

The issue with AC40 Jagers everywhere is that it is one of the ~3 configs (the others being the KC20 and the DDC) that are actually good close-range specialists at the moment. The main balance change ACs need is a buff to everything that isn't an AC/20 or a UAC/5.

Of course, anyone who thinks anything is unbalanced at this stage in the game is in for a nasty shock if clan technology is anything like it is in BT Think 20-ton mechs that rival Stalkers for firepower, LRM splat builds, or assaults capable of fielding the equivalent of 3-4 gauss rifles backed up by a hilarious number of large laser-equivalents.

In the TT the AC is not a solid fire weapon. Is it pretty much a machine gun that fires HEAP (high explosive armor piercing) rounds. The rating value is how many shells it fires. So basically, in laymens terms, this means that the AC is basically the ballistic variant of a laser. It's kind of silly how much punch ACs have, and saying the counter balance is their finite ammo supply doesn't really cut it with me.

[Irreverence]

I wish there were more points you could target on a mech. It would make it a lot more interesting and challenging.

[Taemien]

Khanahar, on 13 April 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Won't destroying the two side torsos necessary to kill a Mad Cat take (25+16)*2= 82 damage but just coring it with CT shots take 36+23= 59 damage? Since it has a huge center torso, the side torso vulnerability would be a pretty minor issue.

I, for one, wouldn't go rampaging if the side torso crits got seperated into weapon pods and proper side torsos. But I also wouldn't mind if they just treated the weapon pods as the side torsos (and modelled it to reflect that blowing them off would take out the arm attached) just as has already been done for the Hunchback, Atlas, Raven, and some Awesome variants.

A good pilot would rotate that damage around too.

However those are in short supply, I can count the number of pilots I've gone up against that rotate their vulnerable parts away from me on one hand. Oh well guess they can learn, though they'll probably whine.

[Adridos]

Accalia, on 13 April 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Well, the image I've seen (if it's official I dunno) was this one here, so we can already get an idea of what the profile will look like, and since it's a 75 ton heavy, that's a big profile.

First off, that's Mad Cat IV, not Mad Cat. Altough the picture it is a pat of is done by the same guy who draws the MW:O mechs.

As far as profile goes, we'e talking about Clanners, man. Just take a look: http://www.mektek.ne...-1114206378.jpg

For comparison, Cicada is 12.6 meters tall.

[Royalewithcheese]

Accalia, on 13 April 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

In the TT the AC is not a solid fire weapon. Is it pretty much a machine gun that fires HEAP (high explosive armor piercing) rounds. The rating value is how many shells it fires. So basically, in laymens terms, this means that the AC is basically the ballistic variant of a laser. It's kind of silly how much punch ACs have, and saying the counter balance is their finite ammo supply doesn't really cut it with me.

TT values don't really mean anything in the context of MWO, tho. In actual gameplay, the AC/20 and the UAC/5 are competitive, and the rest of the ACs are not.