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Little Known Fact?: The First 10 Engine Double Heat Sinks Are "real" Double Heat Sinks


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Poll: Did you know about the difference between in-engine and out-of-engine double heat sinks? (227 member(s) have cast votes)

Did you know about the difference between in-engine and out-of-engine double heat sinks?

  1. Yes (213 votes [93.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 93.83%

  2. No (14 votes [6.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.17%

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#1 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:41 PM

It is amazing how much we discuss heat and heat balance on these forums, and once in a while, someone enters the thread and says something clearly showing he does not know that double heat sinks work differently depending on whether they are the completely free in-engine heat sink (up to 10 for that maximum for a 250 rated engine) or outside the engine.

Public Service Announcement
Your Mech Engine contains heat sinks. The number of heat sinks is equal to the engine rating divided by 25. The first 10 I will call "free engine heat sinks." If your engine rating is 275 or higher, you do not get any more free engine heat sinks. But you can, optionally, decide to install additional "crit-free engine heat sinks. These cost you tonnage, but not critical slots.
And of course, you can always install heat sinks outside the engine.

For standard heat sinks, things are easy. Each standard heat sink gives you a +1 bonus to your heat capacity (added to a base value of 30), and dissipates 0.1 points of heat per second.
For double heat sinks, things get comlicated.
"Free Engine Double Heat Sink": +2 Capacity, +0.2 dissipation/sec
"Crit-Free Engine Double Heat Sink": +1.4 Capacity, +0.14 dissipation/sec
"Out-of Engine Double Heat Sink": +1.4 Capacity, +0. 14 dissipation/sec


Example Calculation
That means for example, let's say you have a mech with 30 standard heat sinks and a 250 rated engine. That means your heat capacity is 60 (30 + 30) and your dissipation is 3second.

You take the upgrade to double heat sinks.
You now have 10 "free engine double heat sinks". You try to fit in as many double heat sinks as you can, let's say you manage another 8.

That gives you a heat capacity of (30 + 10 * 2 + 8 * 1.4) = 61.2 and a heat dissipation of 3.06 / sec.

It also means that before the change, you spend 20 tons and 20 crit slots on your heat sinks, and after the change, you spend 8 tons and 24 crit slots on double heat sinks.

Request to Moderates and PGI:
Please sticky this thread somewhere, so that at least everyone on the forums becomes aware of this needlessly complex system.
Put this information somewhere in the Mech Lab User Interface so that it is highly visible to every player and that people understand what their choice for or against double heat sinks will mean.

Bonus Poll because everything is better with a poll.
Did you know this?


Bonus Upgrade Algorithm
In most possible cases of viable builds:

1) If you are a light or medium mech, take the following upgrades ASAP:
- Double Heat Sinks
- Endo Steel

Now install all the gear and armour you want to install.
If you still have at least 14 crit slots left, you can consider installing Ferro Fibrous. You should check if you could use the weight gains (either to install more armour,or to install more equipment)

2) If you are in a a heavy or assault mech, take the Double Heat Sink upgrade first.
Now install all the gear and armour you want. Now check if there are still enough crit slots left for Endo-Steel and you've got a use for that armour.


Exceptions. Very rare. If you think you've found an exception, post the build on the forums and ask for advice, someone might have an idea for a tweak. If not, go ahead.


Information on the topic from the Devs
can be found here: http://mwomercs.com/...0089-breakdown/
You can thank Prosperity Park, Memerator Extraordinary, for this link.
There is not just stuff about Double Heat Sinks in there (and the info there is not complete - it doesn't explain quite as precise what is in-engine sink and what not - that was I believe research done by fellow posters).
But it also contains information about other little known facts - for example, that water actually increases the cooling of heat sinks in a mech! (Something people sometimes bring up a reason to keep using standard heat sinks, or as a feature that would just need to be added to make them viable...)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 March 2013 - 02:59 AM.


#2 Fate 6

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:53 PM

There's a reason things like dual AC-20 65 ton mechs works. It's because of engine double heat sinks being true doubles. Otherwise those mechs would make the sun look dim.

I'm glad we have true doubles, but I hate the diminishing returns on heat sinks, making anything outside the engine not only worth less by fact of it being 1.4, but also because they give less from the return. They are doubly worse, so why bother?

#3 Team Leader

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:54 PM

I knew that. No idea where to find the info or how, but I knew it.

#4 Cola

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

This was debunked ages ago. Why drag it back out? Besides you don't need Real double heat sinks, now that you have coolant flush.

#5 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:00 PM

View Postarden, on 26 March 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

This was debunked ages ago.

Wrong. That you believe it was debunked is just another example of misinformation that is spread around because the system is needlessly complicated, byzantine and intransparent.

#6 Ialti

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:00 PM

Exception to the rule (for upgrading): some assault-class, high-heat mechs.

#7 Shumabot

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:14 PM

View PostIalti, on 26 March 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Exception to the rule (for upgrading): some assault-class, high-heat mechs.


I hope you voted no, that you don't understand the system. Because it sounds like you don't.

View PostFate 6, on 26 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

There's a reason things like dual AC-20 65 ton mechs works. It's because of engine double heat sinks being true doubles. Otherwise those mechs would make the sun look dim.

I'm glad we have true doubles, but I hate the diminishing returns on heat sinks, making anything outside the engine not only worth less by fact of it being 1.4, but also because they give less from the return. They are doubly worse, so why bother?


An AC20 puts out barely more heat than a medium laser.

#8 Shumabot

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:22 PM

View Postarden, on 26 March 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

This was debunked ages ago. Why drag it back out? Besides you don't need Real double heat sinks, now that you have coolant flush.


Stop trolling.

#9 Lil Cthulhu

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:29 PM

As far as I can figure, DHS are better in every application to SHS simply because when you break it down, the ones in the engine are the equivalent of twenty SHS.

#10 sC4r

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

View PostFate 6, on 26 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

There's a reason things like dual AC-20 65 ton mechs works. It's because of engine double heat sinks being true doubles. Otherwise those mechs would make the sun look dim.

I'm glad we have true doubles, but I hate the diminishing returns on heat sinks, making anything outside the engine not only worth less by fact of it being 1.4, but also because they give less from the return. They are doubly worse, so why bother?


for dual ac20 you dont need dhs... 10 shs will take care of all the heat you need... you will face overheating after some 10+ salvos maybe if you dont stop firing
though i believe mounting dhs on mech is never a bad idea

#11 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:41 PM

Oh, here's some of the details explained by the devs: http://mwomercs.com/...0089-breakdown/
You can thank Prosperity Park, Memerator Extraordinary, for this link.

#12 Shumabot

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:46 PM

View PostLil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

As far as I can figure, DHS are better in every application to SHS simply because when you break it down, the ones in the engine are the equivalent of twenty SHS.


There are some commando builds that can't handle dubs because the commando can't mount an engine that allows it to have 10 internal heat sinks, forcing it to have at least 2 external. There's no other mech in the entire game that can't be flat out improved with DHS.

Presumably the flea will have a hard time with doubles due to the same limitation.

Edited by Shumabot, 26 March 2013 - 01:47 PM.


#13 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:08 PM

I already taught 6 people something new. Maybe I am a high school teacher after all?

Though I hope real high school teachers don't bore 60 pupils with old news and only educate 6. And they teach more important things than double heat sink mechanics.

#14 jeffsw6

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

I just learned yesterday that the "free" heat sinks you add to the engine aren't 2.0 capacity / 0.2 hps the way the first 10 are. This totally bummed me out.

The heat system is complicated and I hope the future mechlab improvements do a better job of explaining this. Why is there a mysterious "heat efficiency" bar? What is that value based on?

Why doesn't the mech lab just show your total heat capacity, and your HPS (is it always 10% of total?) and make it more obvious?

I'm not an *****, but this crap just isn't explained well in-game. I would not have learned about the difference between the first ten DHS and the next 1..4 you put on your engine, if not for chatting with someone who clued me in.

Plus now I have XL350 engines on some of my mechs so I could hold more engine-mounted DHS, because I thought they were better. Now I have to look at all my mechs again and see if I should change them. D'oh!

#15 Fiona Marshe

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:11 PM

Still waiting to make them consistant across all implementations. DHS currently favour light mechs heavily.

#16 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:16 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 26 March 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

I just learned yesterday that the "free" heat sinks you add to the engine aren't 2.0 capacity / 0.2 hps the way the first 10 are. This totally bummed me out.

Imagine how bummed I am - I am day too late to teach you this! Dang! ;)

Quote

The heat system is complicated and I hope the future mechlab improvements do a better job of explaining this. Why is there a mysterious "heat efficiency" bar? What is that value based on?

The guy doing the Excel Mech Lab has reverse engineered it: http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry2119322

I believe it's something like SQRT(HPS Dissipated/HPS Generated) or something like that. But the HPS of some weapons get an arbitary modifier for no discernable reason.

I guess it shows you if the number is high, it's better than when it's low. Don't use it to compare two mechs, however, that might lead to misleading results.

Quote

Why doesn't the mech lab just show your total heat capacity, and your HPS (is it always 10% of total?) and make it more obvious?

That's what I would do. But maybe they fear that this would be to complicated to people? I'd say at least provide it in some tooltip or submenu or whatever. But maybe Mech Lab UI 2.0 will bring us something good here?


Quote

I'm not an *****, but this crap just isn't explained well in-game. I would not have learned about the difference between the first ten DHS and the next 1..4 you put on your engine, if not for chatting with someone who clued me in.

Plus now I have XL350 engines on some of my mechs so I could hold more engine-mounted DHS, because I thought they were better. Now I have to look at all my mechs again and see if I should change them. D'oh!

And dang, XL350 Engines are expensive!

#17 Jacmac

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

Seems to me that this was well known, though PGI could be better about documenting all of the information in a wiki, rather than scattered bits of information in posts.

#18 wolf74

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:50 PM

Error in the title of this thread. IN-engine heat sinks are the heatsink in the engine housing. From what I understand only the in-engine heat sink are true DHS. So a 125rated engine would have 5 true DHS and 5 Enhanced heat sinks (aka 1.4 DHS)

#19 Roadbeer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostJacmac, on 26 March 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Seems to me that this was well known, though PGI could be better about documenting all of the information in a wiki, rather than scattered bits of information in posts.


LOL, you're talking about a company who's most consistently updated roadmap is put together by a player.

#20 Thirdstar

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

View PostRoadbeer, on 26 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

LOL, you're talking about a company who's most consistently updated roadmap is put together by a player.


That roadmap has more 'promises' than a political campaign.





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