38 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Khanahar, on 14 April 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

There is one major problem with the crit system.

When you crit an ammo bin, the chance of detonation is 10%.
When you destroy a component, the chance of each ammo bin's individual detonation is 10%.

Garth once said that the advantage of the MG is that you crit ammo bins without destroying the component. I thought this was cool.

But it turns out there is no advantage whatsoever to doing so.

DESTROYING AN EXPLOSIVE ITEM WITH CRITICAL HITS SHOULD HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF DETONATION THAN JUST DESTROYING THE COMPONENT IT'S IN.

Once this is rectified, MGs will actually become useful as a way to pop open 'mechs. As it is, they remain in all ways inferior.

Or would this just lead to people stop using any ballistics other than Gauss Rifles?

There were table top players whose first action in combat was dumping the ammo of machine guns, well knowing that ammo was a bigger risk to them than their enemy.

Personally I think ammo bins should explode with a high chance, but the damage of those explosions must be much lower. There is no real eason why the ammo explosion really would deal equivalent damage to all those ammo being shot at a target.

[shabowie]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 April 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

But would the ability to destroy a leg actuator really change something?

If it had the kind of effect it has in TT the answer is yes, especially for faster mechs that might be harder to hit accurately in a skinny leg area at full speed. In TT a leg actuator hit would both reduce movement speed and give a penalty on pilot skill checks. We don't have pilot skill checks right now, but you could transfer that into something else, like a chance of falling down, or an increased turn radius on top of the speed penalty.

Also with things like engine crits, to take an engine hit means your mech starts producing more heat, meaning you are less able to fire back with weapons as you go down, again this is no small thing.

Edited by shabowie, 14 April 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[BlightFang]

I dislike the current crit system. I've not played TT and I don't see the purpose of the crit system in the first place. It feels too complex for what it tries to do and is too transparent at that. I would have no idea what the crit system does w/o someone telling me. I also feel it adds a chance factor that just doesn't belong in a skill based game.

Edited by BlightFang, 14 April 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

I want a critical hit system. The current crit system is limited and flawed. Too few things to crit, and the MG is a sad joke. However, the game has other flaws that I think should have a higher priority. Stuck on terrain. Rubberbanding. Mini map. Textures.

[Noobzorz]

I think critical hits are a neat idea, but they're being used to justify making three of the most interesting, unique weapons in the game into unusable piles of crap.

[TehSBGX]

Crits really aren't an issue. Honestly if PGI let go of the crit system and owned up to direct damage hust being better maybe MGs and the LBX will get a much needed improvement.

[MustrumRidcully]

shabowie, on 14 April 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

If it had the kind of effect it has in TT the answer is yes, especially for faster mechs that might be harder to hit accurately in a skinny leg area at full speed. In TT a leg actuator hit would both reduce movement speed and give a penalty on pilot skill checks. We don't have pilot skill checks right now, but you could transfer that into something else, like a chance of falling down, or an increased turn radius on top of the speed penalty.

Also with things like engine crits, to take an engine hit means your mech starts producing more heat, meaning you are less able to fire back with weapons as you go down, again this is no small thing.

I am not meaning this in the sense of "Would you notice a leg actuator is missing"? Of course you would. The question is - would the effect last long enough to matter, considering how fast you can destroy the entire leg in MW:?

In the table top, you might hit the leg of a mech twice the entire match, and if one of those hits destroys the leg actuator, that's great. But in MW:O, if you see a mech has lost his leg armour and can be critted, it is often a good choice to keep hammering that leg and take it off entirely, and you have that choice, because you are in control of the hit locations you hit, not a randomization engine.
One might ask the question - how important are crits in the table top if everyone uses pulse lasers, targeting computers and Elite Clan Pilots (a combination of factors that allows you to designate the intended hit location with a high chance for success, just as in MW:O).

[Khanahar]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Or would this just lead to people stop using any ballistics other than Gauss Rifles?

There were table top players whose first action in combat was dumping the ammo of machine guns, well knowing that ammo was a bigger risk to them than their enemy.

Personally I think ammo bins should explode with a high chance, but the damage of those explosions must be much lower. There is no real eason why the ammo explosion really would deal equivalent damage to all those ammo being shot at a target.

Since my proposal would lead to an increase in critical chance, I think a reduction in damage would make sense.  And yes, logically, less damage should be done by a detonation than firing all the ammo.

And I'd like ammo explosions to be a big deal of running ACs... but making ACs powerful enough to warrant it (right now the 20 is OP, 10 and 5 UP).

Edited by Khanahar, 15 April 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[Tie Ma]

crit system is a nice bit of flavor. but its a horrible balancing mechanic.

its only 1/3 the health of a mech. and by the time you get to the crit component. the mech is essentially already useless

[FrOdO]

[Kmieciu]

<p>

Khanahar, on 14 April 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

<p> There is one major problem with the crit system.
<p>
<p> When you crit an ammo bin, the chance of detonation is 10%.
<p> When you destroy a component, the chance of each ammo bin's individual detonation is 10%.
<p>
<p> Garth once said that the advantage of the MG is that you crit ammo bins without destroying the component. I thought this was cool.
<p>
<p> But it turns out there is no advantage whatsoever to doing so.
<p>
<p> DESTROYING AN EXPLOSIVE ITEM WITH CRITICAL HITS SHOULD HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF DETONATION THAN JUST DESTROYING THE COMPONENT IT'S IN.
<p>
<p> Once this is rectified, MGs will actually become useful as a way to pop open 'mechs. As it is, they remain in all ways inferior.
<p>

<p>Critical hit to the ammo should cause an explosion.If it doesn't what's so critical about it?
<p>

[Joseph Mallan]

There is a Critical Hit system in MWO?

[Shumabot]

They haven't even done a pass on item health and their crit seeking mechanics are nonsense and useless.

Crits are a part of battletech, but the systems they have in place are either non functioning or terribly conceived.

Edited by Shumabot, 16 April 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Shumabot, on 16 April 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

They haven't even done a pass on item health and their crit seeking mechanics are nonsense and useless.

Crits are a part of battletech, but the systems they have in place are either non functioning or terribly conceived.

The item hit points might be one of the weak points of the system. It requires modelling hit points for every item installed in a mech, but in the end hit points will matter only for the last 5-10 seconds of the life of a hit location. And they need to model crit chance for every single hit with a weapon.

I think it might be better if crit chances were simply generated at certain thresholds. Say, every 1/12th of a component'***** points, there is a chance for 0-3 critical hits, that take out a weapon immediately. They could even have through-armour critical hits modelled this way - every 1/2 of a component's armour value (or its max possible armour value?), 0-3 crits might happen.

By the way - through armour criticals could be a way to make the critical hit system more important than it is right now - but it is also very likely to add a randomization element that lacks any meaningful player control but can turn the tide of a combat completely. (Taking out an AC/20 or a exploding a ton of ammo?).

I am not sure if there is a way to make the critical hit system with less randomization, unless PGI were to model the actual location of items on a mech... A "soft" approach might be to remove the random crit location determination to a predictable system (so you know whether installing an AC/20 in the top of your torso will make it more likely to get critted or less likely to get critted.)

[Shumabot]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

The item hit points might be one of the weak points of the system. It requires modelling hit points for every item installed in a mech, but in the end hit points will matter only for the last 5-10 seconds of the life of a hit location. And they need to model crit chance for every single hit with a weapon.

I think it might be better if crit chances were simply generated at certain thresholds. Say, every 1/12th of a component'***** points, there is a chance for 0-3 critical hits, that take out a weapon immediately. They could even have through-armour critical hits modelled this way - every 1/2 of a component's armour value (or its max possible armour value?), 0-3 crits might happen.

By the way - through armour criticals could be a way to make the critical hit system more important than it is right now - but it is also very likely to add a randomization element that lacks any meaningful player control but can turn the tide of a combat completely. (Taking out an AC/20 or a exploding a ton of ammo?).

I am not sure if there is a way to make the critical hit system with less randomization, unless PGI were to model the actual location of items on a mech... A "soft" approach might be to remove the random crit location determination to a predictable system (so you know whether installing an AC/20 in the top of your torso will make it more likely to get critted or less likely to get critted.)

Through armor criticals just turns this game into a luck based randomhouse game where no one uses guns with ammo. Crit systems in general reduce skill and introduce a level of unpleasant randomness to competitive games, if you have random through armor kills on people you're going to see an awful lot of angry players.

"Turning the tide of battle" when you did nothing to earn it is just the game deciding who wins and loses without the players being considered.

Edited by Shumabot, 16 April 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Shumabot, on 16 April 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Through armor criticals just turns this game into a luck based randomhouse game where no one uses guns with ammo. Crit systems in general reduce skill and introduce a level of unpleasant randomness to competitive games, if you have random through armor kills on people you're going to see an awful lot of angry players.

"Turning the tide of battle" when you did nothing to earn it is just the game deciding who wins and loses without the players being considered.

That would be my concern - too random, too uncontrolled.

It would be cool to find a way to remove most, if not all, of the randomness, but again, it seems only possible if we were to actual model item locations inside the mech and player aim would control whether you take out an ammo bin or a weapon.

This cannot realistically work for MW:O or any Battletech game, because none of the mechs were designed around it.

Would be cool if someone were to develop a mecha-game where all mechs are designed from components, kinda "lego-like"..

[Shumabot]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 April 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

That would be my concern - too random, too uncontrolled.

It would be cool to find a way to remove most, if not all, of the randomness, but again, it seems only possible if we were to actual model item locations inside the mech and player aim would control whether you take out an ammo bin or a weapon.

This cannot realistically work for MW:O or any Battletech game, because none of the mechs were designed around it.

Would be cool if someone were to develop a mecha-game where all mechs are designed from components, kinda "lego-like"..

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Chromehounds

Servers are long dead, but what you want is the best mech game ever created (though the single player was terrible and it was very unbalanced).

Edited by Shumabot, 16 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Levi Strauss]

Edited by Levi Strauss, 16 April 2013 - 08:45 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Shumabot, on 16 April 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Chromehounds

Servers are long dead, but what you want is the best mech game ever created (though the single player was terrible and it was very unbalanced).

XBOX... Don't own one, and if the single player was terrible and multiplayer is dead, probably not worth checking out anymore. But I believe I saw a video once, and it looked pretty cool.