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World Of Tanks And The Mwo New Player Experience - A Story


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#1 valkyrie

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:33 PM

I've been playing World of Tanks a little bit as of late. Why? Because I'm a huge weeaboo who loved Girls und Panzer and had this nearly unscratchable itch to play around in a PzKpfw IV. World of Tanks looked to scratch that itch, and I figured "well, why not, it's halfway up the tech tree, can't be too hard to unlock."

Oh man, was I wrong. But, if nothing else, I learned some lessons about what I like and don't like as a new player that hopefully PGI can apply to MWO.

Things start out simple enough. You get a handful of Tier I light tanks that start out their country's respective tech trees. Germany gets the Leichttractor light tank, which leads then branches out into various light tanks, medium tanks, tank destroyers, and self-propelled guns. To move down the tree, you have to first get enough XP to research the parts to progress, then buy them. The first win of every day in each chassis gets you double experience, and I was lucky enough to have been given some starting currency at SXSW to kick things along. OK, let's roll out in the Leichttra-

Oh? What's this? An actual TUTORIAL? And I get rewards for doing it? Ok, why not?
*five minutes later*
Ok, simple enough. NOW let's roll out in the Leichttractor!

I got my *** handed to me. Again. And again. And again. I'm not bad at these sorts of games and I took to the concepts presented pretty quickly (being a BF3 tank ace has given me a real knack for armored combat). The difficulty came more from the fact that I was facing people with heavily upgraded tier I and tier II tanks. I'd shoot and reload, they'd shoot me three times in the span it took for me to get another shell in the chamber. They'd drive circles around me with upgraded engines and turrets, and hit more often than me because their crews were better trained. Nonetheless, I suffered through the first twenty or so games, scoring a few kills and wins as I learned the maps better and slowly upgraded my lowly tank. A few hours later and I had progressed down the tree to the PzKpfw 38(t) - only two steps to go until I could rock the PzKpfw IV! That's when the REAL game hit me like a sack of bricks.

Game after game, my PzKpfw 38(t) would be dropped against Churchills, StuG IIIs, PzKpfw IVs, M3 Lees, M4 Shermans, etc.,all of which were clearly labeled as one or two tiers above my tank's tech level. I'd frequently move along the borders of the map, trying to avoid contact simply because any shots I -did- hit with would frequently bounce off. The enemy, on the other hand, could fire one shot at my front armor and turn my light tank into a piñata. Game after game I'd lose to swift, blinding death from nowhere, then see in spectator mode that many of these much heavier tanks were frequently not only packing way more firepower than I was, but moving as fast if not faster and with better maneuverability to boot. After my tenth spontaneous explosion for the night at the hands of the PzKpfw IV I so desperately wanted, I realized I was making all of about 90XP per loss. The PzKpfw IV requires 15,000XP to research, and no amount of Gold in the world could buy me one before that. Oh, and I still had to research, buy, and upgrade the PzKpfw 38nA before THAT.

I said "**** this," Alt+F4'd, and jumped on MWO, where I proceeded to faceroll some unsuspecting team in my Ilya Muromets. Will I go back to WoT to get my PzKpfw IV? Probably. Will I put any money into the game? Probably not - I just don't enjoy it that much, mostly due to my experiences as a new player.

So, what's this got to do with MWO? Simply put, it's pretty clear that PGI wants 3rd person (amongst other things) in to help improve the new player experience. By looking at what made me ragequit WoT earlier tonight, we might be able to figure out what isn't working in MWO for the average new player, who usually is lacking a support base or pre-existing MC to play with as most of us had.

Now, don't get me wrong, MWO isn't NEARLY as brutal on new players who go "I want that!" as WoT is, but there's still room for improvement. Here's some suggestions based on what I noticed worked (and didn't) for me as new player in WoT, and how they could apply to MWO. It's a short list, I promise:
  • An actual, scripted tutorial. While I understood most of WoT's mechanics because I'm not stupid and pick up on things pretty quickly, the tutorial still gave me a few pointers I otherwise would've missed, like using shift for first person zoom, and hiding from enemy LOS entirely by hiding in bushes (I had no idea you actually didn't RENDER when you were hidden. In comparison, MWO is a far, FAR more complex game, and frankly, YouTube videos are not going to cut it. When you have the incredible array of things you're asked to understand and manage in MWO (spotting, radar, heat management, commander view, ECM, lock-ons, weapon groupings, location-based damage...the list goes on), you HAVE to walk people through it. Learning that your torso and legs move independently of one another is of minimal concern in comparison. Otherwise, they'll end up overwhelmed and leave before they spend a single cent.
  • Revise the ENTIRE Trial 'Mech system. I've since realize that the reason I'm so hopelessly outclassed at all times in WoT is because I'm not putting the time into each tank to upgrade it and make it viable because I'm busy tech rushing right to the tank I want. MWO doesn't have this issue since you just buy everything outright, but the Trial 'Mechs present a serious issue. They're very, very rarely competitive in the metagame at all - the Hunchback -4SP and Catapult -K2 having thus far been the sole exceptions. Chances are it would be far better to fully explain how the game and 'MechLab work, have the player play some in 'Mechs that are custom designed to help new players learn the system rather than designed for TT, then give them a free 'Mech of their own to continue tweaking and learning the ropes on - ideally a Hunchback of their choice, since it can easily fill almost any role sans "ECM *******." This way, they'll have an opportunity to learn different playstyles and have something that could actually be rebuilt to stay competitive, as well as start them on the right foot towards whatever ride they eventually decide they really want. Of course, if they like the game enough to want to buy a 'Mech outright with MC, that's fine too - perhaps give them a one-time "new player discount" on a stock (read: non-Hero) 'Mech option instead of the free Hunchback. However, to get them to stay long enough to spend money, they have to actually like the game first, which will be greatly helped by the aforementioned tutorial far more than something like 3PV.
  • Don't throw them to the sharks right off the bat. While I haven't played it myself, I understand that League of Legends doesn't actually allow you to play ranked games until you've completed a certain number of games. MWO could benefit from this too, pooling new players under a certain game number together, perhaps along with low ELO players. The important part is to keep them from being tossed in against Cataphract jump snipers and PPC boating Stalkers right off the bat. Nothing kills fun faster than a sense of hopelessness. Frankly, if I hadn't been penned in with the rookies in Tier 1 of World of Tanks, I would've dumped it a long time ago. Nobody likes dying in a few hits to experienced players, especially in games where you're not only just learning the ropes, but it takes forever to actually kill someone in comparison to most modern games.
tl;dr read the whole thing, don't be lazy. MWO, while less grindy than some of it's competitors, is still far from new player friendly. Third person view is ultimately putting a band-aid on a bullet hole - the new player experience needs significant reworking if PGI ever hopes to attract more than the most dedicated players.



If you have similar experiences with other F2P games, I'd love to hear them and how MWO could learn from the successes and mistakes of others.

Edited by valkyrie, 27 March 2013 - 10:23 PM.


#2 Warma

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:58 PM

A well done post, and I applaud you for that.

This concerns my #1 gripe about F2P games, which is the inability to play against other people on an even field from the start. Luckily MWO is VERY forgiving on that and only a handful of matches give you the ability to fully upgrade one chassis. Switching engines around also gives the ability to master other chassis without too big of a time investment.

#3 Vassago Rain

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:59 PM

All I can say is, we told them to fix the trialmechs and new player stuff like half a year ago, but it's only now they've felt it's an issue.

They should have some kind of mentor system, I think, where veterans get a token reward for dropping with a nublar, and the nublar also gets something for going through with it.

View PostWarma, on 26 March 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

A well done post, and I applaud you for that.

This concerns my #1 gripe about F2P games, which is the inability to play against other people on an even field from the start. Luckily MWO is VERY forgiving on that and only a handful of matches give you the ability to fully upgrade one chassis. Switching engines around also gives the ability to master other chassis without too big of a time investment.


This is one of the 'fairest' games I know of, as it were. Your AC20 bullets are just as strong in your free hunchback as my AC20 bullets from a 28 million space dollar atlas. It's a good foundation.

#4 roguetrdr

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:09 AM

Cool story bro, needs more dragons n ****

#5 maXe72

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:25 AM

I totally agree with the OP.

Hopefully the Devs are looking into this one.

#6 Karl Streiger

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:28 AM

View PostVassago Rain, on 26 March 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

All I can say is, we told them to fix the trialmechs and new player stuff like half a year ago, but it's only now they've felt it's an issue.


I think the first ideas of tutorials and guidance are as old as the forum itself.

#7 Karl Split

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:33 AM

Very well thought out post OP +1 from me.

Tutorial, better trial mechs and using elo to only put newbies against newbies would be a massive held to the new player experience.

Id say in game comms as well to that, fine people who are already in units wont use it, but it'll help all the new players/lone wolves tremendously.

#8 Thirdstar

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:43 AM

View Postvalkyrie, on 26 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

snip


I'd actually compare your experiences with the PzKpfw IV to say running a Dragon in MWO. Both are just not very good platforms for new players. Might I recommend going up the German or Russian Heavy line instead?

That's kinda offtopic though. I do agree with all your other points and cannot stress enough how much a simple tutorial would help with new player retention in MWO.

I played Warthunder for the first time yesterday and was amazed at their tutorials. There were 8 of them covering a wide variety of subjects (such as dive bombing, torpedo bombing, takeoff and landing, carrier takeoff and landing, bomber turret operation etc etc) and done brilliantly. You also got in-game currency for completing the tutorials, I thought it was an inspired idea.

Heck they explained rudder, ailerons, throttle, elevator controls so well that I was doing barrel rolls in no time flat.

Edited by Thirdstar, 27 March 2013 - 12:45 AM.


#9 Xetherius

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:57 AM

Everyone remembers the "Cadet Bonus", right? Why not wrap this up nicely and have it so only cadets can play with cadets? When it wears off you should have enough experience under your belt to be able to (somewhat) pilot your mech, and the cash means you should be able to get yourself a nice hunchie or something. They could even advertise it as a sort of "Mechwarrior Academy", where you are what you are - a cadet just starting to get his feet wet. Bundle it with a tutorial and SHAZAM! a decent new player experience (or at least better than what we have now)

#10 ryoma

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:57 AM

a good read

#11 RainbowToh

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:12 AM

View PostThirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:


I'd actually compare your experiences with the PzKpfw IV to say running a Dragon in MWO. Both are just not very good platforms for new players. Might I recommend going up the German or Russian Heavy line instead?

That's kinda offtopic though. I do agree with all your other points and cannot stress enough how much a simple tutorial would help with new player retention in MWO.

I played Warthunder for the first time yesterday and was amazed at their tutorials. There were 8 of them covering a wide variety of subjects (such as dive bombing, torpedo bombing, takeoff and landing, carrier takeoff and landing, bomber turret operation etc etc) and done brilliantly. You also got in-game currency for completing the tutorials, I thought it was an inspired idea.

Heck they explained rudder, ailerons, throttle, elevator controls so well that I was doing barrel rolls in no time flat.


Just to say the War Thunder devs had experience from making a few singleplayer flight games of the same engine. In a way they have a headstart in making War Thunder as they need not start from scratch

#12 DragonsFire

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:14 AM

An excellent and well thought out post, kudos on drawing the parallels with WoT as well.

While I see 3PV as something that can be helpful to others (it really is amazing how many people don't get the whole top can move different from the bottom thing) I agree that the main thrust of the issue is getting the new players properly introduced to the game and their mech.

Step by step tutorials with XP and/or C-bill incentives would be fantastic and would provide further incentive to play them out. I am encouraged by the recent inclusion of the Testing Grounds and I hope that this will be built upon further as the game development moves forward.

Unfortunately, that's the rub. Game development still needs to move forward as well. Further training items will definitely take some time, as would any redesign/redo of the Trial Mech system. That's not to say that this isn't already being looked into as part of the upcoming New User changes anyways.

Regardless, I definitely like the direction and intention of the post, and hopefully we see some traction.

Edited by DragonsFire, 27 March 2013 - 01:15 AM.


#13 jeffsw6

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:21 AM

I think MWO should include handicapped matches for novice players. 12 newbies vs 8 veterans, whatever. I imagine plenty of people would volunteer to be on the short-handed team. If you get some kills, you'll get CB/XP for killing more enemies. If you win, you'll feel like it was a fun challenge. If you don't, hey, the other team had more players than you; why feel bad about it?

$0.02.

#14 Tennex

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:35 AM

League of Legends took care of the problem with a level system.

i hope MWO emulates success and implements a level system with community warfare. Maybe level up as a officer in a house.


The pros of a level system is that the player is with similr skilled people all throughout the game. since we don't have tht the closest thing woudl be to put new playesr in the same queue and then after their cadet bonus is up drop them within the real elo system.

an alterntive to tht, woudl be to match players based on games played. players with a similar amount of games played are matched. up to a certain amount of games before putting them in a pool with real ELO people. that wy there is no shock and skil gap from tutorial matching to elo matching.

Edited by Tennex, 27 March 2013 - 01:39 AM.


#15 Test Monkey 13

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:36 AM

Enough with the requests for 3rd person. This game has never been 3rd person stop requesting it please. League of Legends allows higher level players to play lower level players simply by allowing them to select it in the game options. In addition, LoL doesn't discern between a player who is high level just messing around with noobs on an alternate account. His skill and such far outclassing the new players. MWO uses an ELO so a player who is 1300 wins and 50 losses will never face a new player. League of Legends will allow it. Trial Mechs are fine if you understand heat. Most mechs are versatile and allow new players to experience multiple weapon systems. If you allow the community to make a laser boat (for example) it doesn't allow the new player to find a weapon of choice on his own. MWO will get there with tutorials eventually, it has added the sandbox mode too.

#16 Thirdstar

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:39 AM

View PostTennex, on 27 March 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

League of Legends took care of the problem with a level system.

i hope MWO emulates success and implements a level system with community warfare. Maybe level up as a officer in a house.


Other games match new players aginst eachother. and only against each other.


Posted Image

This?

View PostTest Monkey 13, on 27 March 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

MWO uses an ELO so a player who is 1300 wins and 50 losses will never face a new player.

Wrong.

View PostTest Monkey 13, on 27 March 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Trial Mechs are fine if you understand heat.

Also wrong.

No one in the thread or OP is asking for 3rd person. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Edited by Thirdstar, 27 March 2013 - 01:39 AM.


#17 Test Monkey 13

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:39 AM

View PostTennex, on 27 March 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

League of Legends took care of the problem with a level system.

i hope MWO emulates success and implements a level system with community warfare. Maybe level up as a officer in a house.


Other games match new players aginst eachother. and only against each other.


except a lvl 12 player can play a level 4 player anytime you like. and the abilities you have are vastly superior. (for Those of you who haven't wasted your life playing a Game or 2 of League of Legends here is the short of it: any MMO/RPG/PnP game where a level 4 would go up against a lvl 12 imagine the worst case scenario, and you would be correct.)

#18 Tennex

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:43 AM

View PostThirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:


Posted Image


The tiered system is for competitive play i believe at level 30 (its something they copied from SC2)? League of Legends has another level system where plyers earn experience. and by matching with similr levled people, they mke sure people are placed in a pool of similar skill.

The league system you linked is really good for "end level" or just competitive play. maybe it will be implemented in this game. but who knows how the interaction will be with community warfare.

League system in MWO seems to make more sense in a solari type setting. or some kind of arena or team arena competition. since it makes more sense than people from between houses sharing a single leaderboard.

Edited by Tennex, 27 March 2013 - 01:47 AM.


#19 arkani

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:45 AM

Yes PGIGP, listen please.
Good post OP +1.

#20 Thirdstar

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:46 AM

View PostTennex, on 27 March 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:


The tiered system is for competitive play i believe at level 30? i could be wrong though. League of Legends has a level system where plyers earn experience. and by matching with similr levled people, they mke sure people are placed in a pool of similar skill.

The league system you linked is really good for "end level" or just competitive play. maybe it will be implemented in this game. but who knows how the interaction will be with community warfare.

League system in MWO seems to make more sense in a solari type setting. or some kind of arena or team arena competition. since it makes more sense than people from between houses sharing a single leaderboard.


I saw this graphic posted in an old thread and thought it seemed like a good idea. So there's a level system for the casual players and this system for serious play? Sounds like a good way to handle it.





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