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Enhanced Two-Crosshair System With Cannon Arm Or Actuator Damage Compatibility


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Poll: Enhanced Reticule (16 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you support Part 1?

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    Percentage of vote: 81.25%

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    Percentage of vote: 68.75%

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Do you support Part 3?

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    Percentage of vote: 43.75%

  2. No (5 votes [31.25%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.25%

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#1 Renthrak

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:43 PM

I have been thinking on the reticule system in MWO for a while. This is a combination of ideas for alterations to the crosshairs to make them more useful.

Part 1 - First is an Enhanced Arm Reticule:

Posted Image

Figure 1 is the current reticule.

Figure 2 shows the arm reticule grayed-out, which would apply when there are no weapons in the arms.

Figure 3 shows the left half of the reticule turned red, indicating that the left arm has been destroyed.

Figure 4 shows the right arm destroyed.

Figure 5 shows both arms destroyed.

I came up with this as I was working on other ideas. Combat in MWO can be very chaotic, particularly while under fire, pulling the player's attention in different directions at once. The one place that a pilot's eyes will fall most often is the targeting reticule. Thus, I thought it would be nice for the crosshair to provide more information at a glance. Of course, just about the only thing I could think of was the status of the 'Mech's arms, but that seems useful enough.


Part 2 - Next is a way to integrate a Cannon Arm (Such as the original Dragon's right arm) into the existing two-crosshair system:

Posted Image

Figure 1 shows how the reticule would behave if the 'Mech's right arm did not have a Lower Arm Actuator (Preventing horizontal traverse), and the left arm does have a Lower Arm Actuator. Note the transparent half circle 'ghost reticule' that stays with the torso reticule, showing that the right arm is aligned with the torso's point of aim. The arm reticule is grayed on the right half, showing that only the left arm is following the reticule.

Figure 2 demonstrates a possible way for the Cannon Arm to follow the arm reticule's vertical position while remaining aligned with the torso horizontally. Hopefully the 'ghost reticule' would not interfere with the range display in this case.

I don't think that this would be too difficult to implement, particularly with the recent addition of 'Lock Arms to Torso'. When the arm reticule moves left or right of the torso reticule, the Cannon Arm could act as if it was locked to the torso. If it would be preferable for the Cannon Arm to follow the arm reticule vertically as it does for 'Mechs that have both arms lacking a Lower Arm Actuator, then the 'ghost reticule' could move as shown in Figure 2.

While I was working on this idea, it occurred to me that this would also allow the destruction of an Arm Actuator to have an effect on aiming. Losing the Lower Arm Actuator would change the behavior of that arm to a Cannon Arm. Loss of the Upper Arm Actuator would lock the vertical movement of that arm, so the 'ghost reticule' could follow the horizontal movement of the arm reticule. Alternatively, loss of the Upper Arm Actuator could lock that arm to the torso as in Figure 1.


Part 3 - Last is what I'm calling the 'Convergence Reticule':

Posted Image

While I was considering changes to the reticule, I realized that a number of the problems with aiming could be reduced or eliminated by showing the status of weapon convergence. As often as First-Person Shooters are used as a negative comparison for MWO, I think we could take a cue from the way that such games inform the player of their accuracy.

When the reticule is moved, a pair of 'ghost reticules' would expand horizontally from the arm reticule based on the distance where the weapons will converge compared to the distance under the reticule. As convergence corrects to the new position of the reticule, the 'ghost reticules' would contract until they merge with the arm reticule. To show that convergence is not aligned with the target under the reticule, the arm reticule would turn gray.

Optionally, an additional layer of complexity could be incorporated. The position of the 'ghost reticules' could correspond to where the left and right side weapons would hit at the current distance of the arm reticule. A player with good timing could attack multiple targets or different locations on the same 'Mech intentionally.

With convergence set to instant with the recent patch, this would have to wait, but it could help.

(EDIT: Details on Convergence Function)
From "Developer Answers 5 - 'Mech Warfare", David Bradley - Game Designer - Overseeing 'Mech combat and BattleTech® Rules

Quote

An additional aspect of our aiming system is weapon convergence. I touched on this in a post I made in reply to Dev Blog 5, but some of you may have missed it so I’ll copy it over here: Basically, your targeting systems are always trying to adjust the angle of your weapons so that they converge or focus at a distance of whatever your aiming reticles are pointing at. So, if you fire at a target very far away, your lasers (or whatever else) may fire nearly parallel to each other; firing at a target up close will angle the shots inwards. However, the adjustment of these angles is not instant. For instance, if you were facing a building, while taking cover right up against it, your convergence would adjust to hit just a short distance in front of you (the distance to the building). When you step out from around that building and fire on an enemy in the distance, your convergence point would automatically begin to adjust, but not instantly. If you shoot too soon, your first shots may converge and cross a short distance in front of you and completely miss the enemy as they pass on either side of him. Or perhaps you were aiming for the centre torso and hit his arms instead, as your aim adjusts towards his centre.


The tutorial video referring to the arm crosshair and torso crosshair tracking as 'convergence' is incorrect.

Thoughts?

Edited by Renthrak, 12 April 2013 - 01:30 PM.


#2 Zyllos

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:24 AM

Interesting concept.

The 2nd part, I would hope, is actually already implemented, for the Highlander's sake, with the AC/20 right arm and missile left arm. It's just that since no mech to date really utilized the system, they waited to implement it.

The 3rd part I am trying to wrap my head around. Physical weapon convergence based on range has always been 100% instant. The convergence mech skill decreases the time for the torso to return to the Arm crosshair, but their convergence has always been instantly.

So I understand that the 3rd part is not particularly useful. PGI gave me a big fat "No" when I asked them about adding spread to weaponry because they believe that having all weapons on a location should only hit on a single point for where you aim, no matter whats going on.

This is creating a phenomon where players maximize builds which focuses all their damage onto a single point, so that they can remove a section as fast as possible. It also is causing players to ignore arms for taking out torsos because killing a torso section will either kill the mech, or remove the arms along with the destruction of a torso.

So, if part 3 was an attempt in adding more weapon spread, I would like this suggestion, if torso weaponry also used somethign similar.

#3 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:44 AM

No need for Part 1 at all. Betty announces arm destruction, along with weapon destruction. You cannot miss both of those announcements. If you have disabled Betty then it's your own damn fault.

Part 2: If something like this is done (am doubtful right now), then the "cannon arm" crosshair needs to be a different shape or something to differentiate it. Maybe an X.

Part 3: No need. Previous MechWarrior games were all 100% convergence as we never had separate crosshairs at all. Adding a second/third crosshair is complex enough for people who have never played this kind of game before.

Besides, as fast as I move the reticle in my lights, the weapons would NEVER converge. Not acceptable.

#4 Zyllos

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 12 April 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Part 3: No need. Previous MechWarrior games were all 100% convergence as we never had separate crosshairs at all. Adding a second/third crosshair is complex enough for people who have never played this kind of game before.

Besides, as fast as I move the reticle in my lights, the weapons would NEVER converge. Not acceptable.


Honestly, that is the point.

This game needs less convergence.

#5 Renthrak

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:34 PM

View PostZyllos, on 12 April 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

The 3rd part I am trying to wrap my head around. Physical weapon convergence based on range has always been 100% instant. The convergence mech skill decreases the time for the torso to return to the Arm crosshair, but their convergence has always been instantly.

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 12 April 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Besides, as fast as I move the reticle in my lights, the weapons would NEVER converge. Not acceptable.


OP edited to include convergence mechanic explanation from the devs. Both of your responses indicate you are misinformed about how convergence works.

#6 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:39 AM

I do know the meaning of the word, thank you very much. I was missing a single word.

My statement should have been "Besides, as fast as I move the reticle in my lights, the weapons would NEVER converge correctly. Not acceptable."

But thanks for busting my balls on a grammar technicality anyway. Serves me right for not agreeing with you, right?

The faster you and your target move, the less effective convergence is. We already have too many stupid light pilots standing around so they can accurately fire a shot or waiting for their weapons to cycle. This would simply encourage that dumbazz behavior.

Also, with weapons that you need to lead, convergence doesn't work at all. Your reticle isn't aimed at the target, it's off in space somewhere. You can kind of fix that by converging on the distance of our locked target, but we very often take potshots at targets we aren't locked onto. And some pilots just don't hit R very often.

#7 l4Dl

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostRenthrak, on 11 April 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:


Thoughts?

Good ideas, i can see the logic behind it, however:

The crosshair system should not include anything other than basic damage info. Adding your armor to the crosshair will just overcomplicate the system.
The crosshair needs to be clear and easy to understand at all times, and, should not negate your ability to aim.

A seperate overlay, outside the crosshairs range might work. eg: similar to WoW health/mana overlays in a arc.

Edited by l4Dl, 13 April 2013 - 10:45 AM.


#8 General Taskeen

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:50 AM

I would like a return of the MW3/4 reticle that could aim out 90 degrees to the side so you could make side shots with your center torso still pointing forward.

#9 Renthrak

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 13 April 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

But thanks for busting my balls on a grammar technicality anyway. Serves me right for not agreeing with you, right?


My correction has nothing to do with grammar. Your criticism is apparently based on the idea that my suggestion would somehow add or alter the convergence function in MWO. This is not the case.

If you have ever fired PPCs at something, only to see them cross in mid-air in front of the target, you have seen convergence at work. What I propose is simply a visual aid on the crosshair indicating whether your weapons will converge properly, or if you must wait a moment for convergence to catch up. This could easily be combined with a command to lock the convergence distance either to your selected target or the current reticule distance. If there is no way of knowing what the current state of your weapon convergence is until you fire, then a locked distance could be incredibly frustrating to use, If you can tell at-a-glance that your convergence is not changing, you will know that it is locked.

The entire purpose of my suggestion is to HELP people such as yourselves who become frustrated by weapon convergence problems. Your hostility is unwarranted.

View Postl4Dl, on 13 April 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

The crosshair system should not include anything other than basic damage info. Adding your armor to the crosshair will just overcomplicate the system.


I am not suggesting adding armor to the crosshair. The indicator is not for the enemy 'Mech status, it's for the player's 'Mech.

Here is a relevant scenario:
You are under fire. You line up a shot an an enemy. You fire one of your weapon groups to finish off your target, but nothing happens. You attempt to fire again, wondering why your weapons aren't working, only to hear "Right Arm Destroyed" just in time to die.

In a critical situation, a pilot will be focused on their own crosshair. If there is an immediate visual change to the crosshair to indicate that you have lost one or both arms, you can fire a different weapon group to compensate.

Since the crosshair briefly flashes red to indicate that your weapons have hit a target, this may need to be changed slightly, but I think the basic idea is sound.

View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 13 April 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

I would like a return of the MW3/4 reticle that could aim out 90 degrees to the side so you could make side shots with your center torso still pointing forward.


You can already do this to a limited degree by holding CTRL. That way, you move your arm crosshair without moving the torso. The limitation is that you can only aim as far left or right as both of your arms can shoot. With a crosshair indication that one of your arms is aiming without the other, this restriction could be lifted, allowing a single arm to aim 90 degrees.

#10 General Taskeen

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:38 PM

View PostRenthrak, on 13 April 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:


You can already do this to a limited degree by holding CTRL.


Limited being the keyword.

And yes, that is what I meant by allowing one arm to aim 90 degrees.

I would like to see:

- Allowing a setting for an arm (if a mech has the appropriate actuators) to be 'unlocked' and aimed 90 degrees to its side.
- Allowing a setting for an arm(s) to be lifted and aimed straight, from the under-slung position (like a human arm)

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 April 2013 - 12:48 PM.


#11 l4Dl

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostRenthrak, on 13 April 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I am not suggesting adding armor to the crosshair. The indicator is not for the enemy 'Mech status, it's for the player's 'Mech.

Adding the player "armor" status to the hud is "adding armor" status.



View PostRenthrak, on 13 April 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Here is a relevant scenario:
You are under fire. You line up a shot an an enemy. You fire one of your weapon groups to finish off your target, but nothing happens. You attempt to fire again, wondering why your weapons aren't working, only to hear "Right Arm Destroyed" just in time to die.

Voice - "Right arm Destroyed"
Voice - "Large Laser DESTROYED"
Voice -"ER Large Laser DESTROYED"
Voice - "Right Torso destroyed".... etc etc
Bright red indicator on the weapons which are disabled.

Its currently a very clear system, if anything, borderline annoying.
I appreciate your trying to "improve" user awareness, but, the data is already there, no need to add the same info in multiple ways.

The whole point of this game is to border "simulation" with "fun". Its done it pretty well and requires you to "think" alot.
Making that "thinking" process any easier just turns the game into "casual" gameplay, at which point, we might as well be playing Hawken.

Edited by l4Dl, 13 April 2013 - 01:04 PM.


#12 Mokou

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:20 PM

I think same, about moddifed crosshair.
Also, if arm have no weapons - 'O' not need.
And if torso have no weapons - 'X' not need too.

Edited by Mokou, 13 April 2013 - 01:23 PM.


#13 Renthrak

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

View Postl4Dl, on 13 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Adding the player "armor" status to the hud is "adding armor" status.


We clearly have a very different definition of 'armor status'. When my 'Mech's left arm has been severed at the shoulder and is now laying on the ground 50m away, I don't generally consider that condition to fall under the heading of 'Armor Status', as it involves the loss of armor, internal structure, weapons, and equipment contained in the now-missing limb.

View Postl4Dl, on 13 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Voice - "Right arm Destroyed"
Voice - "Large Laser DESTROYED"
Voice -"ER Large Laser DESTROYED"
Voice - "Right Torso destroyed".... etc etc
Bright red indicator on the weapons which are disabled.

Its currently a very clear system, if anything, borderline annoying.
I appreciate your trying to "improve" user awareness, but, the data is already there, no need to add the same info in multiple ways.


The purpose of a user interface is to provide necessary information in an efficient and timely manner. I can only speak from my own experience, of course, but I have yet to encounter a situation where alarms, explosions, heat and missile warnings etc. take a short break while I listen to the list of damage locations. I also do not find it particularly easy to track the breached left torso section of my target 'Mech with the reticule while also watching my damage readout and weapon list at the same time.

When it comes to providing important information center-screen, subtle changes to the crosshair strikes me as less disruptive than adding yet more clutter that would visually obscure the battlefield.

Since you have no intention of revising your opinion, I would add an option in the game settings for 'Simple Crosshair' or 'Enhanced Crosshair'.

#14 MentalPatient

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:27 PM

Wish you could get a target overlay marking the status of each part of the targeted mech on the hud

#15 Renthrak

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostMentalPatient, on 13 April 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Wish you could get a target overlay marking the status of each part of the targeted mech on the hud


That sounds like a good idea for a new Module. Overlay damage information directly onto the targeted 'Mech, if you have it. That would fit into the current system of targeting a 'Mech and having to wait for detailed information. You should make a poll for that, I'd vote for it.

#16 Renthrak

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:08 PM

I hate bumping my own thread, but I'd like more feedback, so here it is.

#17 Arcturious

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:08 PM

I had some feedback from a new player, that the arms and torso reticles should be different colours. I think the system you've devised is a nice idea, but too much information. Hardly anyone uses the cool down indicators for weapon groups as it is.

However a simple two colour system to differentiate the torso more from the arms may be of assistance to new players. It wouldn't add the functionality you are aiming for but would be a good first step.





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