39 replies to this topic

[blinkin]

focuspark, on 19 April 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

HSR isn't in place for missiles yet. They're quite inaccurate if your PING sucks.

or if their PING sucks. like many of the light mech pilots who actively abuse the lag shield.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Oblivion5000, on 18 April 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

I run in a Jenner that goes 150 kph, it actually gets hit by a lot of missiles if I do not dodge them by perpendicularly running and then cutting in toward them. Trust me though, doing the maneuver forces me to run strait at you, where that allows lots of opportunity for Large Lasers and PPCs to nail me dead which happens often. LRMs are really an anti big mech weapon, just like SRMs and Ballistics. The lasers on the other hand are more for the little things. Considering in tabletop it was also very hard to hit a light, because they would move so much, you would move, then they could be in cover, and ect. The point is that if you are using LRMs to combat light mechs 1 v 1 ish, they can easily dodge the launch. What you need is another mech to be a diversion, mediums do best.

Basically, weapons are not made for all situations, the LRMs are for slower mechs.

LRMs are only useful against assaults and exceptionally slow heavies (and even then, just barely). If you can pull near 80 in a heavy, you can easily dodge LRMs without putting yourself too far out there. This is not good. This is terrible. This sad and stupid implementation is why people QQ.

The Strange, on 18 April 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

And just for the record, upon reviewing the TAG and NARC again, they claim that the TAG does in fact help with grouping and accuracy, and the NARC gives a 50% bonus to target aquisition time and missile tracking accuracy.

Accuracy and grouping are not guidance. Missiles can be amazingly good at going where they want if their guidance algorithm decides they want to hit the ground 20 meters to the right of my mech. This is what I'm seeing happening. Even with TAG and Artemis, the slow speed results in the LRM guidance algorithm not actually being able to aim at the enemy mech.

[FrostCollar]

I've seen three good suggestions

• HSR for missiles (coming eventually)
  
• Intercept style guidance
  
• Have LRMs accelerate so that they're not so easy to dodge by targets around 800-1000m

TAG and Artemis allegedly help missile tracking, but so long as none of those three changes are in it doesn't have too much of an effect.

[Samaritan]

Hon. Mechwarriors;

I have played thousands of sessions. I have been very patient with LRMs and TAG.

In my experience they are both completely worthless systems. A mech that mounts LRMs is better off detonating the ammo in the mech bay rather than cluttering up a battle group in the field with his useless mech.

A TAG mount starts every scenario 300 pts of damage in the hole. I can do that much damage with a well sinked medium laser for the same weight and weapons mount.

LRMs can be easily avoided with good use of terrain, the presence of ECM, high speed, and geting inside of 180 meters. TAG does nothing whatsoever to mitigate this. It is a trivial matter to play a whole session on the winning team without dying while still scoring 0 pts of damage with LRMs.

This is such a complete destruction of my suspension of disbelief that I have abandoned my favorite sci fi gaming franchise, Battletech, as it is represented by MWO. My only hope for the game lies in the implementation of community warfare and a reasonable fix for TAG/LRMs, whatever that may be, but 0 pts of damage sessions is not it.

I hadn't played for months, logged in to check the forums, played a quick couple of games, and stopped lest the temptation to anger grow too great again.

See you guys in three or four months to see if this disasterous launch has been fixed yet.

Thank you for your consideration of this vent, I really want to like MWO but the implementation of LRMs and TAG is a deal breaker for me.



Respectfully

Samaritan

[CGB Behemoth]

Khmmmmm... How about learning to use LRM?
1) Don't shoot it over 450-500 meters. Target will hide for sure.
2) Don't stay alone. Light will **** you - believe me.
3) Use Artemis. It gave me +10% hits.
4) Go behind Assaults & strike their targets (don't forget rule №1). You will be good help.
5) You really NEED modules (Advanced target decay + target info gathering). Love them.
6) TAG is good. But you need to go straight line. Welcome PPC!
7) Don't shoot just one target. Always look for hitting others (don't forget about rules). Make them nervous. Make them hate you.
8) Have as much ammo as you can! In good fight you will need them all.

This simple rules help me to have >500 damage every battle & make 1-2 kills (before nerf it was about 1200 damage & 4-6 kills). I have about 45% hits & looking for more (If they will really up speed of LRM flight).

Sorry for my bad English.

Edited by Behemothk, 19 May 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[blinkin]

Behemothk, on 19 May 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

Khmmmmm... How about learning to use LRM?
1) Don't shoot it over 450-500 meters. Target will hide for sure.
2) Don't stay alone. Light will **** you - believe me.
3) Use Artemis. It gave me +10% hits.
4) Go behind Assaults & strike their targets (don't forget rule №1). You will be good help.
5) You really NEED modules (Advanced target decay + target info gathering). Love them.
6) TAG is good. But you need to go straight line. Welcome PPC!
7) Don't shoot just one target. Always look for hitting others (don't forget about rules). Make them nervous. Make them hate you.
8) Have as much ammo as you can! In good fight you will need them all.

This simple rules help me to have >500 damage every battle & make 1-2 kills (before nerf it was about 1200 damage & 4-6 kills). I have about 45% hits & looking for more (If they will really up speed of LRM flight).

Sorry for my bad English.

some issues with your rules
1) depends on the target, if i find an atlas out in the open then i will shoot him even if he is right at 1000m.
2) depends on your build, i have a hunchback 4SP (2x LRM20) that can usually run off or kill light mechs with it's arm lasers.
3) i don't like artemis since they only made it line of sight. i tend to only play my LRM hunchback when i play with friends and they keep targets spotted for me. so if everything is going like it should i never need to come out of cover and they get steady missile support.
4) this one is a good rule. in general stay behind the front line and soften up targets that are already being hit.
5) again won't argue against this one.
6) i think tag is best if someone else has it so you don't need to expose yourself.
7) mind games are always fun, it's why i use the hunchback 4SP. the steady stream of missiles that it ripples out makes it much harder for enemies to fight since they are constantly listening to explosions and having their screen shake.
8) i find 6 tons to be about right. if you have the right amount of ammo then you should usually run out as the match is ending on a win. if you never run out then it is wasted tonnage that could be put to better use.

tldr; rules 4-7 are pretty good with a minor addendum added to #6, but i think the rest need some changes.

[Zerberus]

Dirus Nigh, on 17 April 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

This is BS, The missiles are aiming low and hit the ground behind fast moving targets. I have watched this happen while using my catapult firing on jenners running in the open on caustic valley and alpine. The missiles strike the ground 15m away from the target at times. This happens when I keep weapons lock with direct LOS, while using TAG and or artemis.

WTF?? You`re complöaining that a mech that easily runs 100+ can run faster than a missile with an indirect trajectory that moves at 100.

Do you also complain that a bicycle rider is faster than a pedestrian? Or that a ferrari is faster than a Bicycle? because that how obvious it is that they can`t hit.

If your target can start 2 ft in front of you and run straight ahead until your missiles self detonate and do no damage, how exactly could anybody realistically expect to hit them at all when it starts off even further away?

The reality is that most people thingk LRMs are lock-on, fire-and forget-easymode weapons, and nothing could be further from the truth. It`s gotten to the point where I usually hear "incoming missile, turn to see where they`re coming from, and often simply take 2 steps back and watch the fireworks happen 10 feet in front of my cockpit while already firing at the source. In an Atlas. Simply because the lrm users appear to regularly think 980 meters was close enough on open terrain.

I still carry LRMs myself on numerous mechs, but I would never use them on a light unless he`s charging straight at me, everything else is a guaranteed waste of ammo. And anything over 500 yards is usually wasted ammo, too , unless you have LOS and no way to lose it. LRM s are actually most effective between 200 and 500 yards, and when a brawler is closing a large LRM alpha at 250m will often change their mind about how good of an idea it is to engage you. In that 2-300m range, large LRM racks have the potential to easily be the most devastating weapon in the game (80 or 90 missiles x 1.0 dmg = 80 or 90 damage alpha with a homing system and a short flight time. Suck on that PPC boats )

In the hands of a player that understands teh limitations of the weapons system itself , an LRM90 Catapult A-1 is quite possibly the most dangerous "joke"build in the entire game, even with the current nerf

Edited by Zerberus, 20 May 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Zerberus, on 20 May 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

WTF?? You`re complöaining that a mech that easily runs 100+ can run faster than a missile with an indirect trajectory that moves at 100.
and then a bunch of stuff that makes no sense.

Yes I see a problem with a mech that is moving at 100kph. What you are basicly telling me is that a car traveling at an average high way speed can out run a ******* missile. You dont see a problem with that?

You do not have a problem with a mech being virtually immune to a whole weapon system?

Your example of a bicycle rider being faster that a person on foot, or a car faster than a cyclist, is beyond ridiculous. This in no way is analogous to the situation with LRMs. A better comparison would be a cyclist being faster than an arrow loosed from a bow, or a car faster than a bullet fired from a rifle. Or a car faster than a computer targeted missile IE ROCKET. Really a model rocket sold to children is faster than a car.

Yes I have a big problem with that. The LRMs are clearly not tracking the target properly. This has started when the devs nurfed the crap out of the missiles after braking them with the artemis change.

Also your "ability" to find cover when a player fires a missile at you is not a skill. It is proof that PGI should not have put a missile warning message into the game. You are being told the instant a player fires a missile weapon that it is coming. This is no different that the target warning that PGI put in the game then removed because it was just dumb to have.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

My experience in the last week has been that between low flight speed for LRMs and lack of HSR you should not waste ammo on anything going faster than about 80 kph, even with TAG, Artemis IV, or whatever. Mind you, if you see a fast mech standing still for some reason, then by all means light him up.

Also, anyone paying attention and near cover should be pretty safe from LRMs right now.

Where they really shine is firing on slow targets who are either in the open (not near cover) or not paying attention. Certain maps are great for them, and others are really bad (Frozen City and areas of River City are basically immune to LRMs). Take some kind of secondary weapon so you aren't entirely useless to your team, and do your best to position so that enemies will be in the open relative to you, but if they're on the ball on those maps you're just not gonna get many hits.

The wide open maps, though, when the enemy gets caught away from what cover there is, and isn't moving very fast, then you can still rack up the kills. It's not really a function of the LRM's damage, though, but their targeting and the current splash mechanics. They preferentially damage the CT, and a good solid LRM carrier can kill an Atlas from the front in about three volleys, a few more if you have to blow the arm(s) off first cause he's twisting a lot.

Obviously, the LRM speed boost and missile HSR will both help a lot against faster targets, and will help with slower targets near cover as well (giving them less time to hide after the missile warning). LRMs and Streaks both need a guidance fix (apparently they target locations correctly, but they do so by tracking "bones" inside the mech, which are all closer to the CT than the missiles should actually be hitting). I'd be very reluctant for PGI to boost the damage on either weapon (standard SRMs need it more and don't have guidance problems) until they do something about guided missile and CTs.

Zerberus, on 20 May 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

WTF?? You`re complöaining that a mech that easily runs 100+ can run faster than a missile with an indirect trajectory that moves at 100.

Units matter. 100 m/s =/= 100 km/h. 100 m/s = 360 km/h, which is more than double the speed of the 152 km/h Jenner. At 120 m/s it'll increase to 432 km/h, which is beginning to approach triple the speed of fast mechs.

[Samaritan]

Hon. Behemoth;

Thank you for your assistence with resolving my LRM issues. I am sorry I did not make it clear that I am an expeirenced mechwarrior when I mentioned my thousands of sessions. Take for example a Stalker LRM boat. You can confidently enter a match with this mech regardless of your skill and have 20-40 percent of your games result in 0 to <100 pts of damage for your score as the LRM/ECM/TAG systems are currently configured.

Here's another example. I run this Commando build.



It used to hold it's own in closed beta, not anymore. I loved going commando in my COM-LAR . It was a fun ride, not a power build. It was a lot of fun to steak across the map and fence with my LRMs, but that has changed since PGI chose to spend most of a year with thier heads burried in the sand over the LRM/ECM/TAG fiascos. LRMS are worthless and that is infuriating.

I am not arguing that LRMs don't do damage. I am not arguing that you can't bump into clueless LRM pin cushions amongst the ranks of your enemies. I am saying that there is a non trivial 20% + chance per drop that if your opponents are doing what they should, and you and your team are doing what you should, very close to 0 pts of damage can be scored at the end of a 5 minute match with an LRM boat.

Rediculous.

But not quite as rediculous as the arrogant and rude children who are compelled to slander thier companions with thier thoughtless posts here on the forums.

I know how to play the game and I am very experienced with it. I grew up with Battletech. LRMs are an iconic part of the game. LRMs are worthless in MWO. The only function TAG brings to the table is to subtract 300 pts of damage I could have inflicted with a medium laser. The current implementation of the LRM/ECM/TAG systems has ruined MWO as a combat simulator for me. Untill they add comunity warfare MWO can't even be said to be a Beta release, it is a stable alpha. Untill PGI can put together a lobby that let's me choose whom I will enjoy the game with, I will hold PGI responsible for the poor sportsmanship, cheating, and vulgarity of the player base.

So naturally I don't play the game. I hold out some small hope that these issues will be resolved and the potential I see in MWO will be realized. Unfortunately the impetus of the founders program money appears to have run it's course with nothing more than a few patches and mech skins to show for it. I am disapointed and do not relish waiting another 10 years for some one else to take a chance with making a game for the Battletech franchise.


@ Levi Porphyrogenitus Thank you sir! That was a great post.

Edited by Samaritan, 20 May 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[jakucha]

Devs mentioned possibly increasing LRM speed slightly, aside from all the other fixes they are confirmed to be getting. Be patient.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2315318

Edited by jakucha, 20 May 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I confirm, I had Artemis LRM 20 on atlas firing at Jenner around 400 out, and they hit the ground behind moving target (about 50-70% of them).

Not sure if it is just distance catching up to max range or what, but the desired effect was not there.

[Fr4ctal]

Just out of sheer curiosity, what is everyone's accuracy (assuming the game records it correctly) on their most used LRM system? My most used is LRM15 and my accuracy is 38%. I generally take extra care when deciding to fire or not.

Edit: Also, why on earth is there no toggle function for the TAG. I am tired of having to use a stack of quarters on my keyboard to keep that thing going.

Edited by Fr4ctal, 20 May 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

i got pretty angry last night watching a Centurion run along at maybe 90ish and my missiles would go right behind him. It isnt the missile speed, its how they're tracking. and right now that tracking makes it impossible to hit a target moving perpendicular to the missile volley. even mechs like Catapults and Jagermechs can dodge a lot of the missiles if they just move perpendicular.

i mostly don't have problems hitting assaults, light mechs i rarely even bother with any more, the missiles don't even come close %90 of the time. LRM's used to be a nightmare for lights, because they almost always hit, and at the time they hit like a dual AC20 mech, or Quad PPC Stalker. it didn't mater that the damage was spread out a little, it frequently utterly annihilated enemy lights.

i don't want to see that happening again, but currently you're lucky for a couple of missiles out of 30 to hit. that's probably not even 5 damage. but when it happens on Mediums as well (besides the cicada, we all know its an overgrown jenner) its just crazy.

[Agent KI7KO]

Fr4ctal, on 20 May 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Just out of sheer curiosity, what is everyone's accuracy (assuming the game records it correctly) on their most used LRM system? My most used is LRM15 and my accuracy is 38%. I generally take extra care when deciding to fire or not.

Is it bad that i winced at this question without even looking at my own stats?

LRM 15 94 39,030 13,399 34.33% 08:39:57 12,980
These runs were basically done on my Founders C1 trying to make LRMs work, and I never run without Artemis.

EDIT: Calculator. So basically, each trigger pull on my ALRM-15 does 4.98 damage.

Great use of 8 tons right there.</sarcasm>

Edited by Afoxi, 20 May 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[blinkin]

Afoxi, on 20 May 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Is it bad that i winced at this question without even looking at my own stats?

LRM 15 94 39,030 13,399 34.33% 08:39:57 12,980
These runs were basically done on my Founders C1 trying to make LRMs work, and I never run without Artemis.

EDIT: Calculator. So basically, each trigger pull on my ALRM-15 does 4.98 damage.

Great use of 8 tons right there.</sarcasm>

actually for 1000m range that doesn't need line of sight i think that is well worth it. UAC5 is 9 tons with just a little over half the range (optimum) and obviously requiring direct line of sight.

a reliable 5 points of damage out to 1km regardless of obstacles, seems pretty good to me.

[Agent KI7KO]

blinkin, on 20 May 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

actually for 1000m range that doesn't need line of sight i think that is well worth it. UAC5 is 9 tons with just a little over half the range (optimum) and obviously requiring direct line of sight.

a reliable 5 points of damage out to 1km regardless of obstacles, seems pretty good to me.

Regardless of what you might think, firing LRMs further than 500m without line of sight is a surefire way to waste ammo.

...and that's with Target Decay 2/2.

The alternative is to sit out in the open and visually guide your missiles in while being shot at by everyone else looking at you.

Edited by Afoxi, 21 May 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[blinkin]

Afoxi, on 21 May 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Regardless of what you might think, firing LRMs further than 500m without line of sight is a surefire way to waste ammo.

...and that's with Target Decay 2/2.

The alternative is to sit out in the open and visually guide your missiles in while being shot at by everyone else looking at you.

it works well for me as long as i have friends spotting and relaying info through skype, but i only use my LRM hunchback when i am playing with a group. it is most certainly not something i want to subject myself to when pugging.

[MrZakalwe]

ohtochooseaname, on 17 April 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

I am able to dodge non artemis LRM's going 80 kph in a Jagger, while staying in LOS of the target...this is ridiculous.

This is exactly what I'd entered the thread to post; with a 300XL engine and speed tweak on my Jagermech as long as I'm moving perpendicular to the angle the LRMs are coming from then they all miss, no cover involved.

[buttmonkey]

im kind of on the fence about this one. i have team mates who still use them and do ok, but even they admit that they are way under powered at the momemt. personally i dont use them anymore because i think for the tonnage they are rubbish. if possible just take off your lrms and replace them with ppcs lol
i think the only real use for them right now is to force enemy mechs into cover. everybody ducks into cover when they get the incoming missile warning.