14 replies to this topic

[Hedonism Robot]

Right now we are seeing a lot of PPC boats, jump snipers everywhere and 2xAC20 monsters. I have seen many posts by players asking to nerf these weapons via heat, health or damage. The thing is these weapons are really working as they should. If you are a great shot taking out a section of a mech with a high alpha is a tactical and great gameplay mechanic.

I would like to see players more encouraged though to eliminate weapons first and weaken the mech rather than just burrowing through the CT. What PGI needs to do is increase the health of only the center torso globally across all mechs. This is the only section of the mech that really needs a significant boost. Right now the feel for blowing off arms, shoulders and legs feels right. The change to game balance would be a minor boost in the effectiveness of brawling weapons and DPS over alpha builds. This will encouraging snipers to disable the weapons on a brawler as they close the gap.

As someone who has played the TT and previous mechwarrior games support PGI taking a course separate from strictly copying existing material. I do think the meta of this game should follow the soul of mechwarrior and 8 mechs jump sniping with PPC boats is not in line with this. It should be beneficial to look at your targeting computer and see whats the loadout on the mech and try to disable the primary weapon before going for the kill.

Along with this change depending on how balance turns out a very minor increase might need to be applied to the side torsos of mechs as well to keep XL engine builds viable and help lights which are reliant on them.

TLDR: I would like to see CT health increased but leave hard hitting ballistics as they are. I basically want mechs to remain intact a little bit longer after their armor is stripped.

[Zyllos]

Hedonism Robot, on 17 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Right now we are seeing a lot of PPC boats, jump snipers everywhere and 2xAC20 monsters. I have seen many posts by players asking to nerf these weapons via heat, health or damage. The thing is these weapons are really working as they should. If you are a great shot taking out a section of a mech with a high alpha is a tactical and great gameplay mechanic.

I would like to see players more encouraged though to eliminate weapons first and weaken the mech rather than just burrowing through the CT. What PGI needs to do is increase the health of only the center torso globally across all mechs. This is the only section of the mech that really needs a significant boost. Right now the feel for blowing off arms, shoulders and legs feels right. The change to game balance would be a minor boost in the effectiveness of brawling weapons and DPS over alpha builds. This will encouraging snipers to disable the weapons on a brawler as they close the gap.

As someone who has played the TT and previous mechwarrior games support PGI taking a course separate from strictly copying existing material. I do think the meta of this game should follow the soul of mechwarrior and 8 mechs jump sniping with PPC boats is not in line with this. It should be beneficial to look at your targeting computer and see whats the loadout on the mech and try to disable the primary weapon before going for the kill.

Along with this change depending on how balance turns out a very minor increase might need to be applied to the side torsos of mechs as well to keep XL engine builds viable and help lights which are reliant on them.

TLDR: I would like to see CT health increased but leave hard hitting ballistics as they are. I basically want mechs to remain intact a little bit longer after their armor is stripped.

That might not be much of a bad idea.

Honestly, you would have to increase the LT/RT also.

How much would you increase the internal structure of the LT/RT/CT? For it to bring a significant impact to gameplay, the boost would need to be signficiant.

Take an Atlas, for example. In CBT, the CT has 31 boxes, thus should have 62 armor points in MWO. How much should the CT now be? 50% increase to 93? That would mean you would have to deal 124 + 93 = 217 points of damage to destroy an Atlas by the CT, or 84 + 42 = 126 * 2 = 252 points to be destroyed by legs (no 50% internal structure increase). The side torsos would take 84 + 63 = 147 points (50% internal structure increase) or 84 + 48 = 132 points (no 50% internal structure increase). An arm, for reference, would have 68 + 34 = 102 points.

Honestly, now looking at these numbers, they do not sound right. What is the armor distribution values? Maximum 2 times internal structure value?

Either way, just working with the above values, that would make mechs last much longer. But if people continue with the 30 point pin-point alpha strikes, even increasing the LT/RT would not make people want to shoot at arms. It would take an extra whole 0.5 alpha strikes, or no difference. I would almost venture to say that if you increased the RT/LT/CT internal structure by 100% that it would matter:

100t CT: 124 + 124 = 248 (100% increase)
100t LT/RT: 84 + 84 = 168 each (100% increase)

For Reference:
100t LA/RA: 68 + 34 = 102 each (0% increase)
100t LL/RL: 84 + 42 = 126 each (0% increase)

Looking at it closely, it does provide a small benefit. A LT/RT would take 5.6 alpha strikes @ 30points while the LA/RA would take 3.4 alpha strikes @ 30 points. But the problem still remains, it's always better to just shoot off the LT/RT instead of the LA/RA, unless the LT/RT is hard to hit and gives no benefit over hitting the LA/RA (Dragon and Centurion comes to mind).

Edited by Zyllos, 17 April 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Rakashan]

I'm on the fence regarding the actual proposal. I think it comes down to how you would like to see the game played and whether or not your want to encourage making zombies before killing or encourage sniping. At the moment, the meta certainly seems to favor the snipers at least based on what you actually see in games.

If the decision were made to up CT or RT/CT/LT hits (or even armor) you'd have to remember to increase the amount of ammo per ton as well accordingly.

[Budor]

I have been wondering (posting) abput to short ttk for a while now. Once they fix missiles stuff will go down even faster...they need to do something.

[jeffsw6]

I kind of agree, but wouldn't this basically be a huge buff to assaults and heavies -- in other words -- a nerf to lights and mediums?

I think sniping is completely out of control and taking a lot of the fun out of the game, and LRM-warrior was actually better; but buffing up CT health is going to cause other changes besides making sniping a little more difficult.

I really think Gauss Rifle ammo needs to be fewer shots per ton, forcing you more into the role of a dedicated sniper if you choose to carry that weapon. As for PPCs, cut their damage and heat in half but double their rate-of-fire, and nerf the ERPPC a little by changing the damage drop-off so it's doing 0% by 1200m.

Just my 5 MC worth.

[Straften]

We don't need to add armor. We need to add something to discourage mass sniping.

• Add in mech mortars
  
• Buff air strike
  
• Buff mortar strike

Sniping is still viable, but not spammable. Sniping meta over.

Edited by Straften, 17 April 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Zyllos]

jeffsw6, on 17 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I kind of agree, but wouldn't this basically be a huge buff to assaults and heavies -- in other words -- a nerf to lights and mediums?

I think sniping is completely out of control and taking a lot of the fun out of the game, and LRM-warrior was actually better; but buffing up CT health is going to cause other changes besides making sniping a little more difficult.

I really think Gauss Rifle ammo needs to be fewer shots per ton, forcing you more into the role of a dedicated sniper if you choose to carry that weapon. As for PPCs, cut their damage and heat in half but double their rate-of-fire, and nerf the ERPPC a little by changing the damage drop-off so it's doing 0% by 1200m.

Just my 5 MC worth.

Not quite sure I could agree with is being a buff to Heavies/Assaults. Medium mechs might be the least buffed by the change cause they would receive less value while Lights, which is pretty hard to hit, would be just that much more survivable.

50t CT: 64 + 32 = 96 --50%--> 64 + 48 = 112
50t CT: 64 + 32 = 96 --100%--> 64 + 64 = 128

The 100% increase would add one more alpha strike for surviving. So *shrug*

[Jonathan Paine]

No, just, no.

Ok, I'll play. I'l support the following crazy increase:
Light mechs:
LT/RT +2 armor +1 internal
CT: +3 armor + 2 internal

Medium
LT/RT +3 armor +2 internal
CT: +4 armor +3 internal

Heavy:
LT/RT +4 armor +3 internal
CT: +5 armor +4 internal

Assault:
LT/RT + 5 armor +4 internal
CT: + 6 armor +5 internal

[Fut]

Straften, on 17 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

We don't need to add armor. We need to add something to discourage mass sniping.

• Add in mech mortars
  
• Buff air strike
  
• Buff mortar strike

Sniping is still viable, but not spammable. Sniping meta over.

This would curb all of the Sniper Builds we're seeing these days, but it doesn't get to the route of the "problem".
Which is the fact that a couple well placed shots are enough to destroy many Mechs.
Of course "Learn to Play" can be thrown in here, but BT is supposed to be a grueling battle, not a quick 2-shots and move on type of game.

[Rakashan]

Just for the record, Gauss Rifles already got the biggest shaft on ammo when the armor was doubled. All auto cannons picked up an extra 50% ammo per ton (the AC/2 actually got more a 66% boost per ton). The Gauss Rifle only got a 25% boost per ton.

Cutting the ammo per ton for Gauss would just cause pilots to drop support weapons in favor of becoming dedicated Snipers which would not change existing meta. Changing damage profiles for extreme ranges might help on the larger maps but would have little or no impact on smaller maps.

Discouraging snipers will really require providing a threat to them. Slowing their damage output will not change the opinion that sniping is still the most effective way of dealing damage with lower risk. I'm not sure I think that the Mech Mortar or the consumables really make an effective counter to snipers or can be made to be an effective threat without becoming totally imbalanced in their own right.

[Black Ivan]

Just cut the range of the weapons down to what they were in the basic TT rules. Sniping only works when the weapon does damage after it's intended range.

[Mechteric]

Increasing armor would just make it that much harder for non-gauss/ppc/ac20 weapons to take down mechs. That's actually the opposite of what you're seeking to achieve with this request.

[Hedonism Robot]

Jeff, I agree that this would have somewhat of a negative effect on lights vs assaults I do think that in light vs light this would actually be quite nice as it would reduce the effect of ssrms and ecm (CT takes longer to blast through with the streaks) opening up more options for variation. Since matchmaking is going to focus more on classes & tonnage I think it works out for the best in the end due to this. Lights are more balanced vs the other light that is on the opposing team.

The other way to do the boost to internal CT could be a small flat boost (all mechs get +15-20 health) and a percentage one based on the normal health of the section. This way the protection to the center is more balanced for mediums and lights and doesn't skew things too much.

I also think this will help balance out LRM and ssrms when their damage is fixed. The primary complaint on LRMs is that they inflicted too much dmg to the center torso.

Zyllos does bring up a good point on how much to actually add. I didn't put a figure in because this is going to have to be a "feel" response. Due to so many factors like torso twisting, etc.

I don't know if the ammo issue would be too big of a factor but a small boost to ammo count might be nice. Right now the only ammo type that really fails to deliver for me at least is LRM ammo, but this is mostly due to how hard they are to land esp with mechs powering down to drop the lock. Most of the ballistics feel fine on ammo count.

[jeffsw6]

The reason a CT health buf would be a nerf to light mechs is because it would take them that much longer to kill a heavy / assault opponent. It already takes a long time for a Spider to kill an Atlas.

Perhaps if the Atlas had more CT health, the 6 MG Spider would not be over-powered? I don't know!

If Gausscats want to drop all their medium lasers and SRMs and become dedicated snipers, that's fine. What is NOT fine is that Gauss Rifle having so much ammo that you can spray and pray. If you have 40 rounds of Gauss ammo you do not have to be skilled or accurate, and you can use it in a brawl (until it blows up, anyway.) However, if you only get 3 shots / ton, you'll be forced to make your shots count. That is what a sniper is supposed to do, and it is how they should "fix" the out-of-control Gauss sniping.

Oh, and if Gauss ammo is nerfed, that will just shift more people to ERPPCs. The range of those things has to be reduced, the critical slot count increased, or something, in order to dial back that side of the ridiculous sniping. Boating 6 ERPPCs is not how the game should be played, period.

Edited by jeffsw6, 17 April 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[neviu]

yaay more health