71 replies to this topic

[Khanahar]

Jonathan Paine, on 17 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Buff LRM speed. Keep SRM the way it is. Have streaks hit more than just center torso.

This man speaks the truth.

I mean, streaks do hit more than CT, but, especially on smaller 'mechs, do damage it disproportionately consistently.

[Ravingdork]

Belorion, on 17 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Were they Stalkers?

May have been. I've crossed paths with at least one that was most certainly a missile boat. I also spectatored one on my team with two LRM20s and two LRM10s as he ran himself out of ammo and ran for a victory cap.

[Davers]

You see LRM mechs because there are people who believe that LRMs counter snipers when it's actually the other way around. Also some players want to play the 'Long Range' game, and don't have mechs set up for it, so they are running whatever long range mechs they do have. A lot of mechs come with LRMs so everyone who didn't sell them have a few laying around.

[Jonathan Paine]

Thontor: is that plain vanilla single LRM 15 without Artemis? How many tons of ammo? Curious because my LRM numbers look horrifically bad compared to yours.

[Thuzel]

Thontor, on 17 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Hmm... same tonnage, same crit slots... 60% more damage? in 3 less games?

You just proved my point.

You fired 32,640 LRM's and landed 13,365 for only 12,903 damage. Whereas with the ER PPC you fired 1,626 times, hit 820 times, and did 8,046 damage.

For each entire salvo of LRM 15 that managed to hit, you did only 5.92 damage, some of which was spread out on your target. With the PPC however, you did 9.8 (all to one location).

So there's really no comparison. One of those two weapons does almost twice the effective damage, is entirely fire and forget (With LRM you have to maintain the lock during flight), can't be dodged, can't be outrun, and doesn't spread damage.

Edited by Thuzel, 17 April 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[Thuzel]

Mild Monkey, on 17 April 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Agreed. You need to bring a lot of lrms and you need to expose yourself in order to dish out this amount of damage. That's why I think the flight time should be reduced and they also need a buff to the damage. I was just saying that lrms still can be viable, but at high costs.

Agreed, they haven't been made completely ineffective. Just horribly weak in comparison to other weapons.

[Cel]

Thuzel, on 17 April 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

You just proved my point.

You fired 32,640 LRM's and landed 13,365 for only 12,903 damage. Whereas with the ER PPC you fired 1,626 times, hit 820 times, and did 8,046 damage.

For each entire salvo of LRM 15 that managed to hit, you did only 5.92 damage, some of which was spread out on your target. With the PPC however, you did 9.8 (all to one location).

So there's really no comparison. One of those two weapons does almost twice the effective damage, is entirely fire and forget (With LRM you have to maintain the lock during flight), can't be dodged, can't be outrun, and doesn't spread damage.

Yeah, the amount of missiles fired just to equal out the ER PPC damage is just ridiculous. Not to mention the 60% accuracy vs the 40% accuracy of LRMs.

[Hellen Wheels]

Thontor, on 17 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Hmm... same tonnage, same crit slots... 60% more damage? in 3 less games?

You should see them with a team strike using LRMs, a veritable artillery barrage that clears the battlefield.

It is a thing of beauty when done right.

[Alistair Winter]

I've had a lot of success with LRMs, especially after the patch. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I don't think they need any buffs right now. They're working fine for me.

[Kanatta Jing]

Cel, on 17 April 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Yeah, the amount of missiles fired just to equal out the ER PPC damage is just ridiculous. Not to mention the 60% accuracy vs the 40% accuracy of LRMs.

There is something important your missing. The amount of missles fired exceeds the PPC shots fired by a wide margin.

This is because it is fantastically easier to line up shots when you don't need line of sight.

It is not a proper comparison if you don't account for the increased opportunity to fire the weapon.

[John MatriX82]

They still are bugged hitting virtually only the CT (as even the smaller splash dmg concentrates there as well), as SSRMs are..

[Cel]

Kanatta Jing, on 17 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

There is something important your missing. The amount of missles fired exceeds the PPC shots fired by a wide margin.

This is because it is fantastically easier to line up shots when you don't need line of sight.

It is not a proper comparison if you don't account for the increased opportunity to fire the weapon.

You're also forgetting that even though you can fire while behind cover, you have a limited amount of missiles and it is far easier to run out of ammo while missing 60% of your entire salvo. You miss an ER PPC shot and it's not a big deal.

[Cel]

John MatriX82, on 17 April 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

They still are bugged hitting virtually only the CT (as even the smaller splash dmg concentrates there as well), as SSRMs are..

All you have to do is turn, let them hit your arm. Besides, even if it is a bug - people will still use TAG and/or Artemis and still achieve the same effect and you'll still think it's bugged.

[Lance425]

Some people got spoiled when things were completely broken...

[aniviron]

Every time I see someone firing and hitting tons and tons of LRM ammo, I always check the scoreboard to see how they did. It's rare to see them in the top four, even.

[Devil Fox]

Thontor, on 17 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Hmm... same tonnage, same crit slots... 60% more damage? in 3 less games?

Yea but you don't run only 1 of each to test... you'll be boating 2-4 15's or 2-4 PPC's in most cases. So really is that empirical research? No, because it's bias based on how you load out YOUR mechs and use the weapons.

[Rhent]

I love taking a nice LRM shower during a fight. As hundreds of LRM's slam into me and eventually turn my armor yellow while I kill their team mates, I'm glad the opposing team is boating LRM's. PGI found a way to turn LRM's into MG's, Kudo's PGI!

[Ravenspyre]

The only reason LRMs might actually be devastating now is because the ECM patrol has been decreased due to people training up their highlanders. But hell LRMs can be made ineffective by terrain and just shutting the power of your mech down thus completely ruining in flight missiles. It always fascinates me how many people just herp a derp and take missiles on fully, not even trying to get into terrain or shutting their mech down when it cover to force target loss.

[Thuzel]

Apostal, on 17 April 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yea but you don't run only 1 of each to test... you'll be boating 2-4 15's or 2-4 PPC's in most cases. So really is that empirical research? No, because it's bias based on how you load out YOUR mechs and use the weapons.

Also doesn't include TAG or Artemis data.

Thontor, on 17 April 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

try running dual ERPPCs with only 20 DHS, tell me how that goes. There's a reason I have 34% more shots fired with the LRM15s... I can continue firing without ever having to worry about heat, that is not the case with ERPPCs.

Dual ERPPCs with 20 DHS only have 46% cooling efficiency, and a max sustained DPS of 3.07
Dual LRM15s with 10DHS have 83% cooling efficiency, and a max sustained DPS of 4.10 not including splash damage

And yes, you'll get better heat efficiency with regular PPCs, but then you run into the range issue... only 90m to 540m optimum range.

I've found the range addition of ER PPC's to be marginal even on large maps (only a 5 to 10% increase in average damage for myself and others). The truth is that the vast majority of encounters fall well within the standard PPC's optimal range. When you start talking about DPS and heat efficiency, the better comparison is LRM 15 to PPC. Especially so, considering the minimum range on LRMs.

[Thuzel]

Thontor, on 17 April 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

gonna have to disagree about ERPPCs vs PPCs... The vast majority of sniping standoffs i've witnessed are beyond the PPC's optimum range of 540. Especially on the larger maps where many times people are shooting each other from 1km or more apart... where the regular PPC does practically nothing.

I also smile inside when I see a mech using just regular PPCs, that means I can either out range them significantly, or if i'm short range I can get up in their face and they can barely even hurt me.

I've noticed that too, but I've also noticed that most of those shots miss. The extended range only helps if people can actually hit at those ranges, and most people can't. I very rarely get hit during engagements over 800 meters, with ER PPCs or anything else.

On your other point I agree. If someone doesn't have close range weapons to cover the minimum, then they should have either a very mobile mech or reliable teammates. Failing that, they deserve what they get.