31 replies to this topic

[Skyfaller]

Devs,

Currently the preference for alpha striking (which in my definition is to fire all weapons in a single group at once) is a no-brainer over chain firing due to the mechanics of the game favoring instant direct damage over heat management.

For example, if I boat six PPCs in a stalker and alpha fire them the heat rises to 60%. If I chain fire them, by the time the sixth PPC fires the heat is 55% (the mech cools off 5% total in between the chain fired PPCs).

That is a very small benefit to chain fire over the massive advantage of hitting a target with such heavy damage all at once with an alpha strike.

So, why not make both alpha and chain fire have their own unique benefits and penalties?

Alpha strike:

Benefit: Instant damage from all weapons.
Penalty: Heat dissipation ceases for 2 seconds per weapon fired.

Result: The mech can fire an alpha strike but it will not start to cool off for a while. Alpha firing 2 weapons is a 4 second penalty.. alpha firing a boated 6 ppcs results in 12 seconds of no heat dissipation.


Chain Fire:

Benefit: Increased heat dissipation of -2 heat per weapon fired.
Penalty: Damage output is lowered and spread out as the weapons chain fire.

Result: Chain firing the 6 PPCs would result in a -12 heat total buildup but it delivers the damage slower and very likely not to the same hit box location.


The overall result of these changes would be obvious: Combat becomes a lot more fluid in the sense that it will rely a lot more on maneuvering, aiming and damage distribution torso twisting. Combat no longer is instant death as you receive massively boated alpha strikes as the norm in any map. Battle becomes longer and more involved.

Alpha strikes are still possible however the penalty makes it undesirable as a first choice option... but it is still a very good and valid option when delivering a massive blow is worth the heat dissipation delay (aka you sneak behind a mech with hurt rear armor and you know one alpha would ruin his day.. well worth 12 seconds since you can run to cover for 12 seconds if it doesnt).

[AnnoyingCat]

NO

[Karl Streiger]

YES

[Volt Corsair]

MAYBE

[Quxudica]

Skyfaller, on 18 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Devs,

Currently the preference for alpha striking (which in my definition is to fire all weapons in a single group at once) is a no-brainer over chain firing due to the mechanics of the game favoring instant direct damage over heat management.

For example, if I boat six PPCs in a stalker and alpha fire them the heat rises to 60%. If I chain fire them, by the time the sixth PPC fires the heat is 55% (the mech cools off 5% total in between the chain fired PPCs).

That is a very small benefit to chain fire over the massive advantage of hitting a target with such heavy damage all at once with an alpha strike.

So, why not make both alpha and chain fire have their own unique benefits and penalties?

Alpha strike:

Benefit: Instant damage from all weapons.
Penalty: Heat dissipation ceases for 2 seconds per weapon fired.

Result: The mech can fire an alpha strike but it will not start to cool off for a while. Alpha firing 2 weapons is a 4 second penalty.. alpha firing a boated 6 ppcs results in 12 seconds of no heat dissipation.


Chain Fire:

Benefit: Increased heat dissipation of -2 heat per weapon fired.
Penalty: Damage output is lowered and spread out as the weapons chain fire.

Result: Chain firing the 6 PPCs would result in a -12 heat total buildup but it delivers the damage slower and very likely not to the same hit box location.


The overall result of these changes would be obvious: Combat becomes a lot more fluid in the sense that it will rely a lot more on maneuvering, aiming and damage distribution torso twisting. Combat no longer is instant death as you receive massively boated alpha strikes as the norm in any map. Battle becomes longer and more involved.

Alpha strikes are still possible however the penalty makes it undesirable as a first choice option... but it is still a very good and valid option when delivering a massive blow is worth the heat dissipation delay (aka you sneak behind a mech with hurt rear armor and you know one alpha would ruin his day.. well worth 12 seconds since you can run to cover for 12 seconds if it doesnt).

This would make coolant both a massive advantage and mandatory edging the game that much closer to p2w.

The best answer to alphas already exists, the heat scale penalties from TT that create major performance issues the hotter you run (granted that may not hurt a six ppc stalker sniper as much).

[Tennex]

they can't do that this is so forced.

and there are so many ways to circumvent this. its not just alpha vs. chain fire. its a spectrum

what if people split all weapons into 2 weeapon groups. fire one before the other. no alpha pentalty. but still technically an alpha.

[Dishevel]

A few of my builds have chain fire groups.
Of those that do, it gets used.

Two real changes need to happen.
A: This is war and sometimes your number is just up.
When you get blasted to hell immediately after tuning a corner. Deal with it. Stop the QQ.
B: Chain fire needs to be more customizeable. I should be able to choose intervals. .15 sec, .25, .5, .75, 1.0 secs.
On a 6 LL Stalker you could set the chain so that it starts firing one laser before the other is done.

What should happen is that players should have more choice. More, not less.

Edited by Dishevel, 18 April 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Skyfaller]

Tennex, on 18 April 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

they can't do that this is so forced.

and there are so many ways to circumvent this. its not just alpha vs. chain fire. its a spectrum

what if people split all weapons into 2 weeapon groups. fire one before the other. no alpha pentalty. but still technically an alpha.

Alpha in my definition is firing all weapons in a group at once (not chain fired). This means 2 med lasers in a group or 9 med lasers in a group. Key point is: in the same group.

If you have 6 weapons and split them into 2 sets of 3 and fire them all at once you get -2 sec penalty per weapon fired non-chain in the weapon group. Still a total of 12 seconds penalty.

If you split the 6 weapons into 3 weapon groups of 2 each and chain fire all 3 weapon groups you would get 3 weapons firing at once per weapon group and all 3 weapon groups granting -2 heat per weapon fired. Thing is, 3 would be the MAX number of weapons your mech can fire 'at once' under chain firing multiple weapon groups simultaneously... which in essence is the whole point of it: no alpha strike of all boated weapons. For that, you simply assign a weapon group with all boated weapons for your penalty-incurring alpha strike needs.

Since you cannot load more than 2 AC20s in a mech (as far as I know) these would be only 'boated' weapons that can simply be fired with no heat penalty or bonus if they are in separate weapon groups. Gauss generates no heat so its a non-issue on the 3-gauss boated mechs. PPCs and all other weapons is where this becomes really useful.

Quxudica, on 18 April 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

This would make coolant both a massive advantage and mandatory edging the game that much closer to p2w.

The best answer to alphas already exists, the heat scale penalties from TT that create major performance issues the hotter you run (granted that may not hurt a six ppc stalker sniper as much).

The heat scale penalties are practically nonexistent. Like i said a mere 5% heat extra from firing 6 PPCs at once is not a major game changer that would make me really think if I should alpha strike every time rather than chain fire.

Coolant? Hey its up to the player. It makes no difference if they use coolant now to pump in a few more alphas or after this change to drop their heat during the X seconds of no dissipation to fire some more. Remember the chain firing opponents are literally getting a coolant-like bonus per shot when chain firing. Its nothing closer to P2W than it is now... its simply a different way of doing it.

[Gideon Grey]

And when someone runs a macro that fires those 6 PPCs in a chain with a 5ms delay between each firing, resulting in all 6 firing within a quarter second or so, which is virtually instantaneous and gets the chain fire "benefit"?

Or you hard code it to prevent this by penalizing any overlapping firing time at all (only pure chain fire) then you massively penalize the light pilot who fires several medium lasers in rapid succession... Or do you do this for only PPCs? Which seems arbitrary...

I think as has been said, the only true and fair fix is to have true heat penalties for running hot as in TT. This solves a multitude of issues.

[Jonathan Paine]

Alpha strike: damage spread out

Chain fire: pinpoint accuracy. Small delay between shots to combat macro

[MeatForBrains]

While i think there is some merit, i think the penalty to alpha (2 second penalty) + incentive for chain (-2 heat) aren't necessary.

One or the other would be more than enough.

Also 2 seconds is too much. Just doing 1 second penalty per each additional weapon and nothing else would get you where you want to be. But then again, what if you were to chain fire weapon groups? 2 med lasers, then 2 large lasers?

How would you address that?

At what point to do decide that a weapon is considered boated? Your definition is after the first weapon?

Or are you just saying that if you shoot ALL weapons does this apply? What if you're carrying LRMS, that would break that mechanic as well.

You've got something, but it needs much more thought.

Edited by MeatForBrains, 18 April 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[XSerjo]

No, not in that way. Poptards don't care about higher heat. It's more important for them to put ALL damage in ONE location, no mater what it costs. They have enough time for cooling, your suggestion will beat only brawlers.

So, please devs, don't screw heat scale.

There're 2 suggestions:

• Weapon convergence;
  
• Heat penalties.

They are natural.

Edited by XSerjo, 18 April 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

AnnoyingCat, on 18 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

NO

Karl Streiger, on 18 April 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

YES

Volt Opt Construct, on 18 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

MAYBE

I like these answers.

I don't like the idea of heat behaving differently just because you fire two weapons togheter or fire them apart.
I don't like that chain-fire is always the worst tactic (the only reason you have 5 % less heat is because you spend some time dissipating heat between shots, multiple weapons fired together would have the same result at that point in time)

A problem with the alpha example is. Those alpha strike mechs dissipate heat already very slowly compared to how fast they build it up. It doesn't matter to them because they have enough heat capacity to fire 2 alphas or so and deliver so much damage that it can cripple an enemy mech.

If every mech weapon would deal only half the damage it would deal now, then that alpha strike boat would not be interesting anymore - it deals too little damage, if it wants to achieve something, it needs the ability to sustain its fire.

[ArmageddonKnight]

I dont see a problem with alpha shots within reason, however they r currently OTT. I think the best course of action would be to reduce heat capaicty and increase heat cooldown rate. Thus making super large alphas like 6PPC's next to impossible without shutting down within 1 alpha. But allow chain fireing becouse u have faster cooldown.

This change would requir engines to give less heat capacity, and requir heatsinks to give more cooling. Maybe a good case to change DHS to actual 2.0x all around.

[cyberFluke]

There is a better way, don't try conjuring up some arcane, arse-backward complicated system to prevent, or squash alpha striking. Make weapons have a degree of inaccuracy somehow (there are a multitude of methods discussed in another thread), rather than the outdated-for-a-reason system we have at the minute. That way an alpha is more likely to spread damage over the target mech rather than be all focussed on one point.

[Mechteric]

Sounds a bit excessive, lower those numbers a good bit and perhaps you'll have a solid idea.

[Dishevel]

cyberFluke, on 18 April 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

There is a better way, don't try conjuring up some arcane, arse-backward complicated system to prevent, or squash alpha striking. Make weapons have a degree of inaccuracy somehow (there are a multitude of methods discussed in another thread), rather than the outdated-for-a-reason system we have at the minute. That way an alpha is more likely to spread damage over the target mech rather than be all focussed on one point.

THIS.
Lol. Absolutely. There is no need to have "Aiming" in this game.
There was no aiming in TT!

For all "people" that want to remove or "Nerf" aiming in this game ...
MechWarrior Tactics is the game you want to be playing.
**** of MWO.

[KingNobody]

Wasn't there a "linked fire" option in older MW games that allowed you to set two weapons to fire together? Maybe something like that would be helpful.

[Terror Teddy]

Chain fire only need one thing.

Cycle rate / weapons in the group

Quad ac2 would shoot at 0.125 between each gun

[Tenpin]

AnnoyingCat, on 18 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

NO

Karl Streiger, on 18 April 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

YES

Volt Opt Construct, on 18 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

MAYBE

I laughed