51 replies to this topic

[Cato Phoenix]

Howdy guys. I just wanted to open up a thread to discuss the light mech balance changes recently, and how I feel they've positively affected the gameplay as I've noticed. I've been pretty pleased with the changes.

So first of all, I've been noticing a lot less light mechs in game. I was playing my spider yesterday, and often I was the only light mech in the game. 1/16. A few more matches had 1-3/16, and it seemed rare to have more than that. Couple times I dropped against a light lance premade, about it. Often games were full of Highlanders, Atlai, and Jaegers. And one of the best things about it was that the light mechs out and about were in such diversity, not just the Raven 3L. I saw Ravens, Jenners, Spiders, Commandos, and Cicadas (hon. scout) all in different flavors. SRMs, streaks, PPCs, whatever. That premade lance was even a Raven flavor fest- A 4x, 2x, and 3L. I think it's -much- more interesting now than the 3L circlestorms.

The reasons, I believe, are the recent changes:

• HSR and hitbox changes: Light mechs are getting hit more consistently now, and taking damage properly. Light mechs, it sometime seemed in the past, used to have the effective armor of two atlases duct-taped together. I consider myself a damned hard pilot to hit in my spider, but I've been on the receiving end of some AC40/PPC/Gauss fire and losing an XL core, ouch. This is balanced by the ability to 90% of the time survive/escape the enemy mechs.
  
• Streak nerfs: So I miss the dumbfire SRM blasting ability in my 4SP, but the streak storm of Ravens circling seem to be gone. Yes, they are still able to put out a hurt, and yes, SSRMs may decide a 1v1 light match. But streaks aren't going to allow you to eradicate an enemy team so long as you bring them.
  
• Knockdowns will come, and make piloting lights even more challenging. (A good thing).

It is my opinion that the easy mode has been removed from light mechs, and so a lot less people are crutching around with them. But hopefully this will allow the pilots who remain (or are brave enough to learn Lights) to have a really good challenge piloting around, and to have a lot more fun. I know I've had to step up my manuevering lately, but I've been enjoying my lights a lot more now. However- this may be contributing to the assault preponderance we're seeing around. Final thoughts are that this is an example how PGI has brought some long-standing issues into balance over time.

[151st Light Horse Regiment]

Ban lights.

This is the only balance the game needs.

[Esplodin]

Cato Phoenix, on 30 April 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

It is my opinion that the easy mode has been removed from light mechs, and so a lot less people are crutching around with them. But hopefully this will allow the pilots who remain (or are brave enough to learn Lights) to have a really good challenge piloting around, and to have a lot more fun. I know I've had to step up my manuevering lately, but I've been enjoying my lights a lot more now. However- this may be contributing to the assault preponderance we're seeing around. Final thoughts are that this is an example how PGI has brought some long-standing issues into balance over time.

Balance? You're high. The only easy mode light was the 3L. I stopped playing that chassis when I got 3 kills while I had the 4 fps bug. All the rest of the lights are lunch for the 3L, even the Jenner. I've played hundreds of matches in my spider, so as a pilot I think I'm passing fair. I got sick of no C-Bills, XP, or fun game play, so 3 weeks ago I bought my first assault. I now have 6 assaults mostly to elite tier or higher. Lights are easy mode? Try the assault tier. There is a fsking reason you see no lights, and I'm reminded of it every time I take one out with one alpha.

151st Light Horse Regiment, on 30 April 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

Ban lights.

This is the only balance the game needs.

I think you have the wrong game. You're looking for this one:

[Echo6]

151st Light Horse Regiment, on 30 April 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

Ban lights.

This is the only balance the game needs.

This is ridiculous.

[Zyllos]

Look, HSR did bring some degree of ability to land damage on fast Light mechs (and I put the quantifier fast Light mechs, there are slow Light mechs that was never a problem).

But this is generally true for only weapons that place all their damage onto a single location. Weapons like the AC/5, UAC/5, AC/2, and Lasers still spread their damage all around Lights due to having to fire multiple shots at the target.

That is partly the reason why many people use PPCs and Gauss Rifles, even against Lights, is because all that damage is going onto a single location. So when you land your shot, it's going to devastate where ever it lands.

[ArmageddonKnight]

Lights still have to much armor tbh. They can take a beating more so than they should when u look at BT lore, and TT.
Universal Double armor screwed up the balance of what each mech could handle. Assualts dont have enough armor and so get wrecked to quikly in brawls, Lights thanks to their speed and manuverability are still relativly hard to hit and becouse they have double armor, they can take multiple shots from things that in BT lore and TT should obliterate them.

PGI increased ROF of weapons and so double armor to compensate . .they done nothing to compensate for the fact that the high dmg slower weapons that used to take out lights mechs, now have to land more shots on a fast moving highly manuverable mech.

Im not saying Lights are impossible to kill or even 'hard' to kill ..they r just tougher than they should be.

[Keifomofutu]

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Lights still have to much armor tbh. They can take a beating more so than they should when u look at BT lore, and TT.
Universal Double armor screwed up the balance of what each mech could handle. Assualts dont have enough armor and so get wrecked to quikly in brawls, Lights thanks to their speed and manuverability are still relativly hard to hit and becouse they have double armor, they can take multiple shots from things that in BT lore and TT should obliterate them.

PGI increased ROF of weapons and so double armor to compensate . .they done nothing to compensate for the fact that the high dmg slower weapons that used to take out lights mechs, now have to land more shots on a fast moving highly manuverable mech.

Im not saying Lights are impossible to kill or even 'hard' to kill ..they r just tougher than they should be.

Not tougher smaller. Lights currently seem to mass much less volume than they physically would normally. A 35 ton light should be a little more than 1/3 the volume of atlas. I don't have a volumatron but they seem to be somewhere in the vicinity of 1/10 his volume.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 30 April 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Cato Phoenix, on 30 April 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

Knockdowns will come, and make piloting lights even more challenging. (A good thing).

As long as Knockdowns can only be performed by heavier weight classes I take little issue with that. However, I surely do not want to see the days of "Jenner Bowling" return, where Light-vs-Light combat shifted its focus from weapon exchange to kamikaze ramming with the intent of stunlocking the opponent rather than actually having a fight.

Personally, I stopped playing mine due to the 3L-ECM-Streak debacle, not because of any of the recent changes. And I think that we're still seeing the aftermath of this, with lots of Light pilots having mothballed their machine, either switching to a different model or leaving the game entirely. Give it some time. I'm considering to take my JR7-K out again soon, too, even though I've grown rather fond of the Centurion.

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Lights still have to much armor tbh. They can take a beating more so than they should when u look at BT lore, and TT.
Universal Double armor screwed up the balance of what each mech could handle.

Oh, please. The 62 points of additional armor benefit an Atlas far more than the 22 points do a Jenner. Especially given the weapons loadout carried by both chassis, which ultimately affects how fast you can compensate for this increase in toughness.

[Esplodin]

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Lights still have to much armor tbh.

<snip>


PGI increased ROF of weapons and so double armor to compensate .

The heavier the chassis, the greater the benefit from doubled armor. Assaults benefited most from the armor increase, since it had more armor to double.

Keifomofutu, on 30 April 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Not tougher smaller. Lights currently seem to mass much less volume than they physically would normally. A 35 ton light should be a little more than 1/3 the volume of atlas. I don't have a volumatron but they seem to be somewhere in the vicinity of 1/10 his volume.

Mass != Volume**. Archimedes is rolling in his grave somewhere.

**http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01652.htm

[ArmageddonKnight]

I know how the %'s work. Maths does not figure for how much harder it is o place just 1 shot on a light mech vs another larger heavy mech. than tiny extra bit of armor than now lets said mech survive that one shot has effectivly givin it a massive lifeline and enough time ot get into the heavier mechs deadzone.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 30 April 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[Keifomofutu]

Esplodin, on 30 April 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Mass != Volume**. Archimedes is rolling in his grave somewhere.

**http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01652.htm

Use your head. Unless you have some weird assumption that some mechs are made of foam and some are made of lead their volume to mass ratio is going to be very similar.

[Esplodin]

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

I know how the %'s work. Maths does not figure for how much harder it is o place just 1 shot on a light mech vs another larger heavy mech. than tiny extra bit of armor than now lets said mech survive that one shot has effectivly givin it a massive lifeline and enough time ot get into the heavier mechs deadzone.

So you should be able to one shot a mech that has to spend a minute or more to whittle down armor on an Assault? That is your idea of balance? Light mechs are faster, but there is ALREADY a speed nerf in place. My 212kph Spider wants to know why my spedo reads 150.8, and feels like 120kph.

I hate to say this, but this is a troll thread about pilots who can't aim. I have no trouble dying in my spider, and no issues killing them in my assaults, mediums, or heavies.

Keifomofutu, on 30 April 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Use your head. Unless you have some weird assumption that some mechs are made of foam and some are made of lead their volume to mass ratio is going to be very similar.

Not only L2P, but you need to learn 2 science as well.

[ArmageddonKnight]

Lights are not brawlers. .they shouldnt be taking on assualt 1 on 1 ..they shouldnt be doing insane damage. They are scout and support, they should rarely be in a position to get 1 shot in the 1st place.

Just becouse they currently can equip insane loadouts for their size and can currently take on assualt mechs and heavies and win ..doesnt mean its right.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 30 April 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[Esplodin]

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Lights are not brawlers. .they shouldnt be taking on assualt 1 on 1 ..they shouldnt be doing insane damage.

In a game that the only rewards are for damage and kills, is it really surprising? Up the C-Bills and XP for caps if you want no damage scouts. Oh wait, you'd get buthurt for that too.

Sounds like someone got the bad touch by a light.

Light>Assault>Heavy>Medium>Light

Working as intended.

[ArmageddonKnight]

look if u cant stand back and look at things without ur own feelings getting involved and asuming things, then this convo is going nowhere.

I already said lights are not impossible or really that hard to kill ..and thats from my own experiance. But taking a step back and looking at it logicaly .they r to tough, if u cant see that then this convo is over.

[Esplodin]

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

I already said lights are not impossible or really that hard to kill ..and thats from my own experiance. But taking a step back and looking at it logicaly .they r to tough, if u cant see that then this convo is over.

I kill them just fine, and that is not based on feelings. You have a hard time, which means you have something to improve on. I suggest making a video of your skirmishes and watching them after the match ends. You will see all kinds of places to improve in your play style. I do this all the time because I'd rather get better by improving my own skills rather then looking for the great PGI in the sky to lower my competition to my level.

Life is hard all over man. Drive a light for a while. It will teach you two things which will up your game:

1) How lights work. Contrary to popular opinion they take a lot of skill to drive (other then a 3L).
2) Where the weaknesses are.

[Karazyr]

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Lights are not brawlers. .they shouldnt be taking on assualt 1 on 1 ..they shouldnt be doing insane damage. They are scout and support, they should rarely be in a position to get 1 shot in the 1st place.

Just becouse they currently can equip insane loadouts for their size and can currently take on assualt mechs and heavies and win ..doesnt mean its right.

erm no? teams of lights can **** **** up like a house crap land mine, dont complain because you cant counter simple harassment tactics, we dont try and brawl a bloody atlas (unless they have standard ppcs them we love their face)

sick your lights on us...oh wait no one plays light anymore...

[One Medic Army]

ArmageddonKnight, on 30 April 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Lights are not brawlers. .they shouldnt be taking on assualt 1 on 1 ..they shouldnt be doing insane damage. They are scout and support, they should rarely be in a position to get 1 shot in the 1st place.

Just becouse they currently can equip insane loadouts for their size and can currently take on assualt mechs and heavies and win ..doesnt mean its right.

Lights need to be viable in 1vs1 the same as any other mech.
"Scouts and Supporters" isn't a valid purpose in a game where combat is the central aspect of the game.

I'm still amazed that there are people who feel that Light mechs should never be a threat to assault mechs.
Bull****. Every mech should be a threat to every other mech. Lights are hard to hit. THey pay for being hard to hit by having less armor and fewer weapons. If you're dying 50% of the time to a light pilot of equal skill in a 1vs1, then things are balanced properly.

If you think light mechs are so OP, go play one for a while and then come crying when you die every match with ~100pts or less of damage.

There are too many people playing this game that thing Bigger=Better, and dislike it that all classes of mech are viable in combat.

Edited by One Medic Army, 30 April 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Stoicblitzer]

don't worry. they will "rebalance" missiles eventually and make 3Ls the king of lights.

[Zylo]

Kyone Akashi, on 30 April 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

As long as Knockdowns can only be performed by heavier weight classes I take little issue with that. However, I surely do not want to see the days of "Jenner Bowling" return, where Light-vs-Light combat shifted its focus from weapon exchange to kamikaze ramming with the intent of stunlocking the opponent rather than actually having a fight.

Knockdowns are a valid team tactic and that was part of the challenge playing a light. You had to avoid being knocked down if you were near the enemy team.

1 on 1 light fights wasted too much time due to the low damage done by each light mech. It was far more efficient for a light pilot to crash into the enemy, let their team kill that enemy and if there were no remaining lights then the light pilot was free to go attack easy targets like LRM boats. 1 on 1 duels do not make sense in a team game when an advantage in numbers can easily be gained by using the knockdown tactics. There is a reason players did this, it gave their team an advantage and often resulted in a win. Some of us don't give a **** about fighting like clanners, it's all about beating the enemy team using the most effective tactics and knockdowns were a very effective way to quickly deal with enemy light mechs.

When I played a light in closed beta I gained far more C-bills and XP by knocking down the enemy light and letting my team kill it compared to wasting a few minutes killing it myself while taking damage. With the enemy light(s) dead I could do far more for my team by taking out those easy target LRM boats or if things were going bad I could go cap to win.