143 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Jade Kitsune, on 26 April 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Yet the CoF ideal works wonderfully for MWO in that it helps prevent the exact problem we're having with MWO right now, pin point fire 100% of the time.

you are piloting a machine of war, there is an element of randomness in that, you might not like that idea, but from a "realistic" perspective [within the universe of mechwarrior/battletech] fighting the CoF would give a wonderful imersion factor of working with the targeting computer to gain a targeting solution.

CoF is the simulation of a squishy human being holding steady a gun while rapidly firing it creating alot of kinetic energy (the recoil effect) making it harder and harder for the squishy human to keep the gun steady for a long time while continuously firing.

Mechs ... dont have that problem. Recoil doesnt exist.

Edited by Teralitha, 28 April 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[blinkin]

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

CoF is the simulation of a squishy human being holding steady a gun while rapidly firing it creating alot of kinetic energy (the recoil effect) making it harder and harder for the squishy human to keep the gun steady for a long time while continuously firing.

Mechs ... dont have that problem. Recoil doesnt exist.

actually squishy objects deal with recoil far better than rigid ones do. even tanks have recoil.

Edited by blinkin, 28 April 2013 - 06:56 PM.

[Lootee]

Mechs suffer from recoil.

In BattleTech if a mech fires a heavy gauss rifle and moves during the same turn, the mechwarrior has to make a piloting skill check or fall over.

I don't know where people are getting this no recoil crap from.

[Teralitha]

PanchoTortilla, on 28 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Mechs suffer from recoil.

In BattleTech if a mech fires a heavy gauss rifle and moves during the same turn, the mechwarrior has to make a piloting skill check or fall over.

I don't know where people are getting this no recoil crap from.

Perhaps the ballistic weapons have some recoil, but lasers certainly do not. Neither do missles. Also.. we dont have any ballistics with rapid fire unless you count the UAC5, which is balanced by jamming. other than the machine gun. Any future rapid fire ballistics we get, like possibly the RAC, which is also balanced by jamming.

We do not need a CoF. But we do need other changes, like slower recycle times, and removing double heat sinks.

[Teralitha]

blinkin, on 28 April 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

actually squishy objects deal with recoil far better than rigid ones do. even tanks have recoil.

And how many rounds in 10 seconds can the tank fire? Cone of Fire? really?

Now lets take a look at the US Navy sea wiz cannon that fires 3000 rounds per minute that shoots down incoming missles... It doesnt suffer from a CoF.

On another note... anyone ever hear the story about a navy sea wiz that someone forgot to turn off in port and detected a swarm of seagulls as an incoming threat?

Edited by Teralitha, 28 April 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[blinkin]

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

And how many rounds in 10 seconds can the tank fire? Cone of Fire? really?

Now lets take a look at the US Navy sea wiz cannon that fires 3000 rounds per minute that shoots down incoming missles... It doesnt suffer from a CoF.

On another note... anyone ever hear the story about a navy sea wiz that someone forgot to turn off in port and detected a swarm of seagulls as an incoming threat?

ever take a look at the size of that gun versus what it is mounted on? that thing is roughly equivalent to the machineguns that mechs use. it is not firing massive cannon shells. even the smallest ships it is mounted on are likely in the thousands of tons range.

cone of fire often also comes from natural defects in weapons or simply air currents at long range. it isn't always from recoil.

you argued that recoil doesn't happen and i showed you a video of something that has a similar weapon size to vehicle mass ratio. you could even take a look at the some of the ground support aircraft we use. there is one that is roughly the size of a cargo plane with a howitzer on the tail, when it fires the tail lurches to the side.

[BattleGnome]

Recoil is not the problem (although implementing some form of it into the game would be neat). Heat is the problem.

The fact that mechs can Jump-snipe/poptart isn't even the problem either. Heat is the problem.

The solution or at least more favorable trade-off is to introduce heat penalties exactly like the way MW3 did it as someone mentioned earlier in this topic. This would address the core problem of alpha-build abuse rather than nerfing yet another role. Players would be less likely to alpha if their ammo exploded or if it affected mech systems in general. Hell, make the heat threshold and behavior similar to MW3. That way, alpha striking with even 6 ER Large Lasers could be suicide (at this point, I'm speaking from my experience in MW3 ).

Also, with the potential of ammo explosions happening due to heat, CASE might actually be seriously used in builds again as currently the best way to avoid ammo explosions is to play tetris with ammo placement and exploit the ammo usage order in the game.

This is one of two ways I can think of that could seriously address the problem of poparting and alpha-strikes. The second way is to bring SRM and LRM base damage values up to TT values.

[Taemien]

I'm definitely going to have to go with there being NO CoF in the lore. I've read a couple of books and a few short stories and when they talk about AutoCannons firing, even the AC20 fires a stream of lead and it all hits the same location with little to no spread (none to represent in stats or gameplay anyway).

The only weapons with CoF is the Ultra AutoCannons firing double rate and Rotaries firing 2-6x. This is already represented in MWO however.

The reason the Heavy Gauss has recoil is because its firing a 250kg slug at hyper sonic speeds. Recoil however doesn't cause CoF. CoF happens due to the inaccuracy of a rapid firing weapon. Which wouldn't make sense with the slow firing weapons on a BattleMech.

I was at the range the other day firing my AR15. I was able to put 20 rounds into the same area of a 8in circle center mast on the target in under 30 seconds at 200m away. The 'CoF' was negligible. I was using iron sights, no scopes, no electronics. I think its pretty safe to assume that it wouldn't make sense for a 31st Century war machine with computers actuators, myomers, and targeting sensors to have any issue where I wouldn't.

[Roughneck45]

I just don't think recoil makes much sense for a mech. It would not diminish my enjoyment of the game if they added it, but i don't think it would fix anyhing either.

JJ shake is a much simpler solution.

Projectile inheritance is in the game though. It is small, but it is in there.

Edited by Roughneck45, 29 April 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

There's still a recoil of a solid object travelling at immense speed. It just doesn't have the propulsion backblast of, say, an AC round. But yes, recoil still exists.

The way I understand it, with chemical-explosion projectiles, the gasses and projectile leaving the barrel act like a rocket, and push the gun back and up.

With Railguns or Coilguns, the whole apparatus is going to try to move in the opposite direction of the projectile, using some :math: where you consider the weight of your projectile + momentum against the weight of the railgun. So you get directly inverse "recoil" but no upward recoil as you would on most traditional slug-throwers.

[blinkin]

Roughneck45, on 29 April 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

I just don't think recoil makes much sense for a mech. It would not diminish my enjoyment of the game if they added it, but i don't think it would fix anyhing either.

JJ shake is a much simpler solution.

Projectile inheritance is in the game though. It is small, but it is in there.

honestly i want both because i want to be able to feel my mech when i fight. i want to cringe as my mech staggers from an AC20 hit. i want to reaim after i fire a high caliber round especially on my smaller mechs (like my ERPPC jenner, i made it BEFORE the PPC even had the heat reduction when ERPPC was 15 heat, and it was a glorious murder machine.) i want my cockpit to shake as i leap from rooftop to rooftop with my jump jets. i want the reticle to sway as i take every massive step.

[Caviel]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

1) Recoil. Our weapons have an impulse when they hit a target (we'll ignore the fact that it doesn't actually affect the aiming of the target it hits, which is dumb, but moving on). It only makes sense that they have an impulse on the object they're leaving. Our war machines are massive, technologically advanced beasts. They carry massive amounts of firepower and armor, and do so with mirace myomer fiber, gyros, actuators, and engines. That doesn't mean they should ignore the simple physics of recoil of firing these massive weapons. Recoil means sustained long ranged fire becomes more challenging. It means sure, you can fire that 3 PPC, 1 Gauss alpha. And sure, it'll go where you aim. But you're going to have to reacquire your target and adjust your aim to compensate for your next shot. This will affect the snipers that are standing still. But what about the moving ones?

Given the multiple second reload times of the Gauss and PPCs, recoil (Which should equal the amount of "shake" the target receives) is negligible since players can easily reacquire aim during the cool down period.

Quote

2) Movement affects aim. It's simple physics. If I'm moving left and I throw something, the object I throw is going to move slightly left as well. The faster I move left, the more the object I throw moves left. The same applies for weapons fire. If I'm accelerating upwards, my shots go higher than where I am. If I'm in a light going 150kph, my aim should be adjusted accordingly. Think of the poptarter: on his way up, he has to aim low. On his way down, he has to aim high. On his apex, he has to aim just right. And that's assuming he's doing a straight up and down and no side movement. Suddenly it's a wee bit harder.

This is already in the game, the projectiles for all non-laser weapons have a travel speed which is accounted for when both the shooter and target are moving.

BattleGnome, on 28 April 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Recoil is not the problem (although implementing some form of it into the game would be neat). Heat is the problem.

The fact that mechs can Jump-snipe/poptart isn't even the problem either. Heat is the problem.

This. So very much this. There is absolutely zero drawback to running redline heat builds. There needs to be more encouragement to manage heat beyond "stop shooting before you shutdown".

Quote

The solution or at least more favorable trade-off is to introduce heat penalties exactly like the way MW3 did it as someone mentioned earlier in this topic. This would address the core problem of alpha-build abuse rather than nerfing yet another role. Players would be less likely to alpha if their ammo exploded or if it affected mech systems in general. Hell, make the heat threshold and behavior similar to MW3. That way, alpha striking with even 6 ER Large Lasers could be suicide (at this point, I'm speaking from my experience in MW3 ).

There are multiple solutions to the issue that many have posted, some or all of which can be used:

-Return PPC/ERPPC heat closer to or at TT values
-Jump Jets generate mech heat
-Negative drawbacks to mech/pilot based on current heat percentage
-Cockpit shake during some phase of Jump Jet trajectory path
-Increase falling leg damage from mechs that drop like a rock without cushioning the landing
-Slow PPC/ERPPC projectile speeds down

Tweaking the numbers for weapons and heat is easy, it's testing the net effects that becomes difficult. Removing PPC/ERPPC effectiveness just means people will switch back to the Gauss Rifle setups again.

[Neverther]

Jumpjets generate heat while used midair.
You need the spider 5V and ten standard heatsink on a hot map to notice it.

I like running spiders (except when I counter 3L as the streaks cores the CT quick and you can't outrun them).

PPC speed to MW2 level? Didn't play early enough to see the slower PPC on MWO, so dont know, but I can imagine the cries of "U DUN NERF MY GUUN".

Other thing I like is the Hunchback 4G with AC20. The AC is mounted close to the CT so it should be a bit more stable than arm mounted if firing recoil/shake comes into game.
If youre running sideways and firing on a stationary target, you need to compensate very little even on longer ranges, and this is with the slowest autocannon slug.

Hunchback is pretty useless as sniper becouse the devs have not fixed the aim reticle often wandering sideways depending on your mech orientation (the aiming point moves, but your firing point is center of screen).
Tried arm mounted PPCs insted of LRMs after the "fixes" and they are almost always first hit miss unless youre checked the real aiming point before firing. This is from mech standing still. Should be nice if JJ had little shake, keeps lights still capeable of firing on close range while dodging, but keeps jumpsnipers aim a bit off say on 350+ meters (when youre close enough to roll the hill).
This does nothing on the PPC stalker.
Replacing LRMs(artemis+tag) with PPCs boosted damage quite a bit and still no heat problems (ended up using ERPPCs).
With LRMs I could achieve the same kind of damage, but not not as consistantly as with PPCs

Haven't played for some time becouse of the PPCfest as it is annoying.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

CoF is the simulation of a squishy human being holding steady a gun while rapidly firing it creating alot of kinetic energy (the recoil effect) making it harder and harder for the squishy human to keep the gun steady for a long time while continuously firing.

Mechs ... dont have that problem. Recoil doesnt exist.

No, but the targeting computer DOES strain to get firing solutions, and has to constantly make adjustments to the small motivators on the mechs weaponry to focus the attacks where you want it.

Thus a CoF mechanic, that expands and get's worse with heat penalty's and the like, is perfect.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

And how many rounds in 10 seconds can the tank fire? Cone of Fire? really?

Now lets take a look at the US Navy sea wiz cannon that fires 3000 rounds per minute that shoots down incoming missles... It doesnt suffer from a CoF.

On another note... anyone ever hear the story about a navy sea wiz that someone forgot to turn off in port and detected a swarm of seagulls as an incoming threat?

Removing double heatsinks?

WTF ARE YOU SMOKING?!

No seriously, the devs made their bed by choosing to run is in 3050... they must lay in it. Dub heatsinks, Ultra AC's, pulse weaponry, that's all here to stay unless they give us a 3025 game mode [which I'm fine with]

So, how about instead of REMOVING CONTENT... we introduce a mechanic that addresses the problems, AND doesn't remove the small amount of content in this game we do have!

[Redacted]

Edited by Egomane, 30 April 2013 - 11:59 PM.
CoC Violation

[Neverther]

Tried playing some.

It is rage inducing, so goodbye.

See you again a in half a year or something (or sooner if they actually manage to fix something) assuming they manage not to break the whole thing apart and someone is still lenient enough to fund them.

I thank paypal for being broken the day I tried to buy MC.
I also would like to thank all the players who have sought out the best bang for ton builds to show us the way into future.

[Nasty McBadman]

One fix for the high alpha gauss/PPC jump-snipers would be a charging period of half a second for PPC and Gauss.
Example: pull the trigger and a high rising pitch sound indicates the gauss is getting ready to fire. Keep the shot lined up until the gauss slug is launched. Same idea with the PPC but a different sound for charging. Also make the PPC and gauss charge times different.

[Ngamok]

Nasty McBadman, on 01 May 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

One fix for the high alpha gauss/PPC jump-snipers would be a charging period of half a second for PPC and Gauss.
Example: pull the trigger and a high rising pitch sound indicates the gauss is getting ready to fire. Keep the shot lined up until the gauss slug is launched. Same idea with the PPC but a different sound for charging. Also make the PPC and gauss charge times different.

Nah, would suck.

[Carbon Guardian]

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

traditional shooters are so unbalanced it is an insult to even bring up games like call of duty. When jumping gives you an advantage in a shooter there is a big balance problem. Jumping should make your life more difficult, harder to aim and easier to get shot. Even for lights they move fast and have good mobility. but should slow down in a jump(assuming the pilot has a mech travelling faster 120kph) which in turn makes them slower and therefore easier to hit (due to slower speed and being out in the open). JJ's were made for improved mobility by not having to walk up a hill or from one ridge top down into the valley and up to the other ridge top, JJ's get you from point A's ridge to point B's ridge with less distance traveled, Less of a curve.

My big question is and if someone know the forum link I would be happy to read it. If the aim modifier is working properly?

[Mister Blastman]

Load up Mechwarrior 3...

Pick a Sunder.
Add 3 ERPPC + 1 Gauss + ammo and sinks to it in mechlab
Do instant action vs. Dire Wolves, Avatars, Annihilators and other stuff (7 mechs)

Proceed to pwn everything that comes at you without effort.

Mechwarrior 3 was as broken as MWO is due to one thing--Convergence. MW 3 started the convergence fiasco, actually.

About the only thing Mechwarrior 3 had going for it was by firing an alpha in that mech you'd have to wait 10 seconds to fire again or you'd explode.