85 replies to this topic

[Zaptruder]

Keep imbalance.

Groups of 10 clanners (2 stars) vs 12 IS (3 lances). IS side gets a reserve mech drop for each player. First mech blown up, second one is dropped.

So as a player, you either get the option of playing a powerful mech... or playing with an extra life.

This way you'll have incentive to play both clans and IS, which helps with the meta game, while having some semblance of balance on the match level.

[Sable]

as much as damage numbers go i could care less if the numbers are exactly the same damage wise but with longer range and lighter weights. That seems totally fine to me.

This would solve the issue of too much damage people are worried about from a single weapon... but would allow greater versatility of weapon loadouts along with equipment. I'm totally fine with some of the loadouts i have now i'm just looking forward to switching out IS XL engines for Clan XL engines to avoid the instant death of shouldering a mech as well as being able to put double heat sinks into my feet. Other then that i am already satisfied with most of my current loadouts. I really just like the chassis designs of some clan mechs too but thats just a vanity thing for me.

Being able to carry a little bit more ammo because weapons are lighter appeals to me but raising the damage seems like it'd be counter productive.

Edit: Wanted to include an example, medium laser and clan medium laser would have the same damage but the clan would have longer range without an increase in heat. Would cost more of course, but the money would feel like its going for the range instead of a better damage weapon. i'll choose short range weapons most of the time because the negatives associated with long range weapons don't seem worth it, although i know a lot of people like to snipe. So in that case i'd still prefer IS weapons if that was the only factor. Just a thought for you guys.

Edited by Sable, 19 April 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Agent KI7KO]

I'd say, ramp up the cost of clantech gear to 500%, then slowly adjust it down about 25% a month (20 months?) to simulate clantech becoming more and more easily found.

Similarly, repair cost 500%, scales down to 150%-ish. Numbers for whatever i have mentioned will have to be tweaked of course.

[FupDup]

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Um, no. Keep ECM-disabling otherwise it's unfair to the clans, and slower projectile makes no sense. Make reloading slower to keep around same DPS instead, and maybe keep TT heat (which means higher heat load than MWO's IS ER PPC)

PPCs aren't used for their DPS, they're a long-range alpha-strike attack. People tend to duck into cover after firing their salvo, so a RoF reduction won't matter in the slightest.

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Not sure. Frankly, we only have the UAC/5 to compare against, and the UAC/5 owns as it is. I think the UAC line has to be nerfed a bit, in fact. Yes, IS version too.

Clan UAC/5 would own even more because of lower likelihood of jamming and less weight. What I really want to know is how much DPS a UAC/2 will have...the dakka will be glorious.

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Until they get a munition worth using for the LBX it's moot to try to balance IS/C versions of it. They'll both suck if they use "shotgun" principles.

That's pretty much what I said but worded differently lol.

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

... No. I'd keep all the same stats 'cept maybe a slightly longer reload time on clan gauss, making it actually less deadly than the IS one in exchange for the tonnage and crits it doesn't cost.

See my response above about PPCs. Gauss isn't about DPS, it's alpha-striking and then taking cover. Lower DPS won't affect them at all.

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Well.... ... I actually don't disagree much on indirect fire there. Though I should point out that it IS capable in TT of IF IIRC.

Frankly, CLRMs are one of the tricker bits to balance because they're so much ridiculously better than IS counterparts... half tonnage for launchers, no minimum range.

I should point out, though, that heat will help keep LRM spamming in check. I actually remember SHS catapults having to pace their fire back in closed beta.

I don't really know what to do with CLRMs at the moment... in part because IS LRMs already are borderline suck at the moment.

The whole indirect fire thing was mostly based on the fact that Clanners frown upon such rather than the actual capabilities of the weapon system.

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Clan pilot tree will likely have to be changed anyway simply because Omnimechs all have only one variant. The loadout may be different but they are the same mech otherwise.

No, really. That's how Omni-tech works.

That's pretty much what my proposed tree would do. The initial Clan Omni would start out with set hardpoints like IS Battlemechs, but as you progress through the tree you get the ability to mount different items so that you can make the alternate variants on the same mech.

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I don't see any reason to change Clan FF or Endo as long as they're only usable on clan mechs and, I'll remind people, when dealing with Pod-space on an Omni-mechs, armor and structure slots are fixed. If they keep TT rules for building, you will not be able to juggle floating criticals around at your convenience.

See somebody else's post:

MustrumRidcully, on 19 April 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

So what? You can't change a Hunchback from normal to Endo Steel at all in the table top. Certainly not for free. SO I see no real reason to believe that a Clan Mech would suddenly have more limitations than an IS mech, when the entire point of Omnimechs was that they were more flexible and cheaper to mod then IS mechs.

Maybe if we start needing to actually pay for the extensive modifications we do on our mechs, but for now, we mostly pay for the parts, and if we want to rip out 3 PPCs and install a Gauss Rifle, we do it for free. Omnimechs can't get cheaper than free, can they? So if their entire point was that they were more flexible, it makes no sense to add limitations because you sure as hell can't give people the cost benefits Omnitech brought. Unless we get money back when we modify Omnimechs.

Scratx, on 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Clan XL... I see that as a "F U CLANNER" to make the engine crappier in any way, but it may be necessary. I'm not convinced, though, and in the case of omnimechs you may be unable to change the engine anyway. The quirk system may be able to balance things there.

The Clan XL isn't "crappier" because you can lose a side torso and survive. This means that Clan mechs of any class can take advantage of it and not just lights and some mediums.

Edited by FupDup, 19 April 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[Kommisar]

For the TT, the way I and some of my old buds (some of whom I play MWO with today!) took care of Clan guys involved a lot of elements that simply are not in MWO and never will be. VTOLs. Lots and lots of VTOLs zipping around. Artillery. REAL artillery. Tanks. Thunder munitions fired from LRM carriers. And our IS mechs waiting until the Clan punks were softened up. Heck I even had a VTOL that was designed as an Elemental killer.

A whole lot of asymmetrical, "dishonorable" conduct. Not sure how that translates here at all.

[Gallowglas]

Kommisar, on 19 April 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

And, unbalanced drops are not going to work. Do a quick head count (poll or something). Given the option, most of the player base is going to go Clan the second it is available. I'm not hating (much... still don't like Clans! ); but it is true. The majority of guys was Madcats, Vultures and cool, high-end tech FTW. It is really hard to run, say, 12v10 or whatever, when over 60% of your player base is Clan. Look at the issues SWTOR had when almost everyone went dark side. And that game wasn't completely focused on PvP.

The reason a huge portion loves playing Clan is because it has a tactical advantage. Give the IS numerical superiority and, thus, their own tactical edge, and I think you wouldn't see a massive skew. The power gamers are going to play whatever they think gives them an edge. If that's not necessarily going Clan, I doubt there's going to be a huge shift.

Mind you, that's a theory. None of us really knows how they'll be implemented and what impact it will have when they are.

BTW, Kommi...the SWTOR ratios apparently aren't as skewed as you might think... http://dulfy.net/wp-.../irratiopvp.png

Edited by Gallowglas, 19 April 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Lightfoot]

A few things overlooked.

Clan FF and Endo, 7 crits each.
Clan CASE=0 crits.
Clan DHS=2crits(they can go just about anywhere) so yeah 25-30 Clan DHS, no problem.
SSRM4=1 Crit and 360 meter range.
Loki will have ECM/BAP stock.
Clan LBX20 do work. 11 tons.
Clan Gauss=12 tons.
ER Meds=360-450 meters, 7 damage, 5 heat.
etc.

I am sure some of this will be toned down, but look for some type of cross-tech, maybe through a Salvage credit system from IS Houses to preserve roleplay. Clan tech will be pricey for Clan and IS though. That might work ok, encourage people to play for IS Houses to gain access to Clan Tech over time via Salvage credits, plus you still have to buy it with CBills, maybe cut price.

Edited by Lightfoot, 19 April 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Edson Drake]

Don't need to balance, make it as powerful as it can be(in TT). The point in this game, IMHO is to play mechs as much as you can, with different mechs. Some(if not all) IS designs are obsolete compared to Clan tech.

I love my Stalkers(and Atlases), but give me a Clan Assault mech anyday. Make the tech available to everyone, not just the mechs. That way you can pack more punch with Clan weapons in IS mechs as well.

Make IS tech cheaper, so that novices would have an easier time trying new stuff(and getting slaughtered by Clan tech, I know), and Clan more expensive. Don't need to balance, since everyone will jump in the Clan tech wagon, just like any new mech.

[Target Rich]

Classic MW thread...same discussion now in various iterations for over 25 yrs now.

The answer is the meta game ... and it is one of sector/planetary level economics.

The best illustration is WWII Germans vs Americans.

Germans had killer tank technology hands down...the Tiger and Panther tanks had better weapons etc. than the American Sherman derivatives....and could wax them consistently in one on one or even platoon level combat.... Heck there is one instance in the Normandy Invasion where one German Tiger..waxed 18 successive Shermans...

BUT..

The American Industrial and Economic machine could replace each Sherman waxed by that Tiger with 3-5 replacements... The German Tiger...being that technological marvel...and hard to produce, staff...and design...was hideously expensive and basically could not be replaced.

Thus the Americans adapted....and swarmed the Germans into defeat.

The exact same concept is built into the battletech metagame....Clan tech is decisively better...but it is hideously expensive compaired with the IS technology... In a properly modeled meta game...the better economics and production capacities of the IS worlds swarms the Clans with inferior but more numerous units.

That is much more difficult to model without a meta game... In MW4 it was modeled somewhat by having Clan Tech cost a great deal more to purchase and replace....

You also might have a consumable problem with equipment wearing out and being difficult to afford replacement....but with the mickey mouse CBill and MC economic system in the game...that would virtually guarantee the game would be an epic fail upon release as frankly most people DO NOT want to play hundreds of bucks for a MMP just to purchase the basic units...

Frankly this is a greater problem than just the clan situation...it speaks to the basic financial model of the game...

[DoktorVivi]

Kommisar, on 19 April 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

For the TT, the way I and some of my old buds (some of whom I play MWO with today!) took care of Clan guys involved a lot of elements that simply are not in MWO and never will be. VTOLs. Lots and lots of VTOLs zipping around. Artillery. REAL artillery. Tanks. Thunder munitions fired from LRM carriers. And our IS mechs waiting until the Clan punks were softened up. Heck I even had a VTOL that was designed as an Elemental killer.

A whole lot of asymmetrical, "dishonorable" conduct. Not sure how that translates here at all.

That's an interesting point, that may lead to what they'll do to balance clans.

No Consumables.

That would be more important if the artillery / air strike were more useful, but still.

[Haroldwolf]

Ghost Badger, on 19 April 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Someone else started a thread about balancing Clan Tech out using heat...and drew a number of responses, one of which was, paraphrased "There are lots of ways to do it, but this isn't one of them."

Well, what ARE those ways? I'm curious as to what you think.

One idea that occurred to me is that, since Clanners are all about their code of honor and engaging individuals in 1v1 duels...how about giving Clanners a mechanic similar to our current 'teamkill' mechanic...but for team assists instead.

Assist a teammate on a kill? -XP and -CBills.

I'm sure some people will shout against this loudly...but it's just a thought.

Got more?

Balancing Clan Tech is a different issue than balancing game play as a clanner.

[Heinreich]

Zaptruder, on 19 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Keep imbalance.

Groups of 10 clanners (2 stars) vs 12 IS (3 lances). IS side gets a reserve mech drop for each player. First mech blown up, second one is dropped.

Clanners still win that one easily. 1 star vs 2 lances would still favor the clanners depending on the composition. 1 star vs 3 lances on the other hand... would be fun given the right composition?

[Svidro]

Worst yet! Only allowing clan vs clan or IS vs IS battles. This gives everyone access to what they want to play as, but ignores the invasion entirely in the name of balance.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Make it all cost twice as much as Innersphere and put Repair and Rearm back in!

[FupDup]

Werewolf486, on 19 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Make it all cost twice as much as Innersphere and put Repair and Rearm back in!

So nubcakes would get to use their SHS Small Laser Hunchbacks while a veteran gets to use their min-maxed gold-plated Dire Wolf because they've accumulated enough spacebucks for it to not matter to them anymore? Sounds legit.

Edited by FupDup, 19 April 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Ialti]

Balance? Open world pvp.

[Thomas Covenant]

Well they can always do a cop out and make them just different than better. Like better stats but an extra ton or two.

[Sug]

I'd give Clan mechs fixed engine/armor/internals, and mixture of fixed/omni hardpoints,

[Thomas Covenant]

Elo. You lose, you fight people with lower Elo, and vice versa. Pilot Trees, Mech Trees, and Clan Tech, all balanced by this system.

And Elo will only get better at providing a even fight.

[Elandyll]

jay35, on 19 April 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

How would you balance Clan tech?

Allow all mechs to run it.

Yes.
It also makes sense with salvage.

Make the Clan mechs and tech very expensive, but available to all.

Now, ton per ton, Clan Mechs are also sometimes just better, but I guess differences could just be "polished away" (for the sake of gameplay), or just part of the matchmaker somehow.

e.g.: Timberwolf/ Mad Cat
75 tons
15 DHS
Ferro Fibrous
Endo Steel
375 XL engine - 86.4 kph
2x LRM 20 (Clan - no minimum distance)
2x ER Large Lasers
2x ER Medium Lasers
1xMedium Pulse Laser
2x Machine Gun

would translate to hardpoints: 2x Missile (11xRT, 1xLT), 5 energy (2 RA, 2 LA, 1 other), 2 Ballistic (probably would have to be put in the CT to limit the size of these)

Compare to the closest Awesome (80t, 5 more):
300XL (60Kph)
15 DHS
5 x energy (2 ER Laser, 2 Medium las, 1 medium pulse)
2x LRM 20
4t ammo LRM

Aside from speed and the 2 ballistics that would have to be kept in check, if the weapons and tech are equivalent, it's not that bad I guess.