121 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Panimu, on 28 April 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

To return to the Original Post a bit I decided to play 5 games in an LRM boat and post the result. All this morning, all with no games omitted. I usually play with my guild but for the purpose of these games I played solo.

Game1: Win, 2 kills, damage lead
Game2: Lose, 0 kills, damage lead for team
Game3: Win, 3 kills, damage lead for team
Game4: Lose, 0 kills, 2nd damage pos for team
Game5: Win, 4 kills, 2nd damage pos for team

You can also come and watch games 3 and 5 on my YouTube channel if you wish. The 2nd one is probably the better watch.
Game 3:

Game 5:


I'm not trying to particularly prove or change anyone's mind with this type of limited evidence. I just thought it might be of interest or amusement..

Interesting and amusing, actually. THANK YOU for using lasers! So many times I used to see LRM boats with no close-in arms at all...

Frankly, it's results like yours that let me say the LRM isn't a completely broken system - but consider that both of the video matches lasted long enough for you to shoot most or all of your missile load, and against opponents who were all scattered out and generally trying to snipe. (The Splatcat and SRM-armed Stalker were the exceptions that proved the rule in that regard - they closed to knife range and were slaughtered by your team because they had no support.)

What I saw in the videos was, if you'll accept the flattery from a fellow enthusiast (LRMs are the closest I can get to field artillery,) a highly competent LRM user who was allowed to pound away at the enemy largely without interference - and still did "only" about 500 damage. 500 is good damage, don't get me wrong; it's just that a poptart highlander in that position could pull down at least 700-800 damage with ERPPCs and a Gauss Rifle. Same with other builds for various 'mechs. The system is still usable, but I think it needs a damage increase in addition to the planned missile speed buff. When, as you noted, most players are simply ignoring the counter-systems for LRM (I've been yelled at on these forums for 'wasting tonnage' on AMS in builds I recommend,) it's probably a good indication something's off.

Sadly, I doubt we'll get another change on LRM damage until host state rewind and the speed boost are live - so we'll have to wait and see. It's worth remembering, however, that the current state of LRMs is not intended to be their final mechanics for release. The devs also have to solve why most LRMs are targeting the center torso instead of scattering as they should. Whatever the case, while I sometimes feel as though I'm throwing wet kittens at the enemy with my hybrid Atlas' LRMs, I'm confident that the weapon system's functionality will be restored in the future. =)

[Jungle Rhino]

LRMs are definitely a shade on the weak side - but I still get good results in an AWS-8T running 2x LRM15 w/Art + 2xLL 2xML (arms) and TAG in head.

The trick is to shoot at short-mid range with LoS while hosing the target down with TAG and lasers. That combination is highly unsettling for anybody. The Lasers also give great close protection from lights and/or brawlers with opened up sections that you can drill out.

I get reasonable results because my LRM boat isn't a boat. It is fast (66.8kmph), with arm mounted lasers and I play it up front where an assault should be, soaking fire and shooting at targets that aren't/can't get in cover.

They need a small buff for sure, I think setting the damage of all missles back to TT would pretty much straighten everything out at this point.

[Void Angel]

A common theme amongst those who tell me (here and in other threads) that LRMs are working for them is either a full-on boat like the Stalker (nothing boats missiles like a Stalker; it's glorious,) or else mobile platforms such as a hybrid-armed Awesome or Trebuchet.

As for resetting damage, part of the problem is that missile tracking isn't working right at present. Too many of the missiles are homing in on the center torso, causing disproportionate damage to that location at higher damage values. Since simply re-buffing the weapons and doing away with splash damage (which hurts smaller 'mechs more than larger 'mechs) would result in damage that's too high for one location, they had to implement the current functioning as a stopgap method - this was all in the hotfix announcement on March 21st. So what we're dealing with isn't a permanent problem; it's just the result of a temporary nerf (which was definitely needed) while they fix the clustering problem so that they can truly balance the weapon system.

[DSruptor]

Void Angel, on 28 April 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

What I saw in the videos was, if you'll accept the flattery from a fellow enthusiast (LRMs are the closest I can get to field artillery,) a highly competent LRM user who was allowed to pound away at the enemy largely without interference - and still did "only" about 500 damage. 500 is good damage, don't get me wrong; it's just that a poptart highlander in that position could pull down at least 700-800 damage with ERPPCs and a Gauss Rifle. Same with other builds for various 'mechs. The system is still usable, but I think it needs a damage increase in addition to the planned missile speed buff. When, as you noted, most players are simply ignoring the counter-systems for LRM (I've been yelled at on these forums for 'wasting tonnage' on AMS in builds I recommend,) it's probably a good indication something's off.

(emphasis added)

That, in my opinion, sums LRM's up very nicely. They are not flamer-horrible, but could definitely do with a bit of a boost. Right now you need line of sight with artemis for any decent result. Which negates indirect fire advantage and therefore makes it directly comparable to PPC/Gauss/whatever. And LRM's can not compete there. If you could actually hit stuff you cant see more reliably maybe the lower damage would be a fair trade-off.

[Void Angel]

Well, they're fixing that a bit with a planned increase to missile speed. However, a scatter weapon has to have a lot of advantages if it's going to be worth choosing over a direct-fire weapon. This is because where 80 damage spread over all three torsos would hurt a 'mech, 80 damage to one torso will cripple or kill. Especially given the disadvantages of using LRMs indirect-fire (no Artemis, need a spotter, someone else has to bring TAG,) LRMs should be pulling numbers at least comparable to direct-fire pinpoint damage weapons. The benefits of indirect fire, even with teamwork, simply do not justify the currently low damage numbers.

Consider a case excample: firing into a brawl. Skill and tonnages being equal, if you do less total damage as an LRM boat than a brawler (and you do,) then the enemy team can typically kill or cripple your teammates with pinpoint damage, then hunt you down and kill you. They might be pretty beat up, but they'll do it. That's where LRMs are right now - again, not totally unusable, but demonstrably weaker than we (and I think PGI) wants them to be.

[Target Rich]

Man I am sick and tired of discussing LRM's.

I am sick and tired of reinterating over and over again the obvious...

I am sick and tired of this whole topic...

PGI gets it! They are working on the scr ewed up mess THEY created.... They know just how worthless their patch made LRM's.... They also know that their basic model for LRM's does not work and requires them to go back to the basic code and rewrite it upward... That is not a small undertaking particularly for a bunch of newbie INDIES like PGI..

Yes the game right now is an unbalanced POS sniper campfest composed of ERPPC/Gauss builds...

Yes PGI has totally sc rewed up the EMC situation...

And yes.,.PGI wants to suck as much money out of your wallet as they possibly can...they have made LRM's dependent upon acquiring 360 and Target retention modules that require you to literally spend a MONTH or more grinding to get this four basic modules required to make LRM's work the way EVERY other MW game has had them work right up front.

Frankly as a beta tester of virtually every other MW title ever produced...I am utterly dumbfounded as to why PGI has made this silly game so fricking complex and purposefully difficult to play..

What we have here is a game designed to appeal to the obsessive compulsive "tin foil had" mechheads who literally spend thousands to equip the perfect cockpit and invest literally man months learning a purposefully and assininely complex beta.

If I was going to seriously make money from the final release that this beta is supposed to represent...I would SIMPLIFY ,much of this mickey mouse BS complexity that prevents normal players from:

1. playing the silly game on about 70 percent of the installed PC base
2. Having FUN playing the mechs for the first couple of months...required to learn the insanely complex and constantly shifting matrix of control options for even the simplest weapons.

[ICEFANG13]

Target Rich, on 29 April 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

Man I am sick and tired of discussing LRM's.

I am sick and tired of reinterating over and over again the obvious...

I am sick and tired of this whole topic...

PGI gets it! They are working on the scr ewed up mess THEY created.... They know just how worthless their patch made LRM's.... They also know that their basic model for LRM's does not work and requires them to go back to the basic code and rewrite it upward... That is not a small undertaking particularly for a bunch of newbie INDIES like PGI..

Yes the game right now is an unbalanced POS sniper campfest composed of ERPPC/Gauss builds...

Yes PGI has totally sc rewed up the EMC situation...

And yes.,.PGI wants to suck as much money out of your wallet as they possibly can...they have made LRM's dependent upon acquiring 360 and Target retention modules that require you to literally spend a MONTH or more grinding to get this four basic modules required to make LRM's work the way EVERY other MW game has had them work right up front.

Frankly as a beta tester of virtually every other MW title ever produced...I am utterly dumbfounded as to why PGI has made this silly game so fricking complex and purposefully difficult to play..

What we have here is a game designed to appeal to the obsessive compulsive "tin foil had" mechheads who literally spend thousands to equip the perfect cockpit and invest literally man months learning a purposefully and assininely complex beta.

If I was going to seriously make money from the final release that this beta is supposed to represent...I would SIMPLIFY ,much of this mickey mouse BS complexity that prevents normal players from:

1. playing the silly game on about 70 percent of the installed PC base
2. Having FUN playing the mechs for the first couple of months...required to learn the insanely complex and constantly shifting matrix of control options for even the simplest weapons.

The game isn't really complex, like at all, especially now.

[Void Angel]

Target Rich, on 29 April 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

Man I am sick and tired of discussing LRM's.

I am sick and tired of reinterating over and over again the obvious...

I am sick and tired of this whole topic...

Rant! Ranty rant, rant, rant! RAAAAAAAAAH! Ranty mcranterson rant! ANGER! Rant-a-tat-tat raaaaaaugh! I'm a smart beta tester, rawr! Aaaaaand et cetera.

Then why are you here? To rant and rave, and insult the game and its designers while you make up lies about what percentage of "normal players" can run the game? To annoy people and troll topics to get responses?

Go. Outside.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 April 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Shinikaru]

Inyc, on 21 April 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

I have only been using LRM20 since the last patch, one of them, on my Highlander. I have 2 tons of ammo (of which I fire an average of 75%) for it and use Artemis. It comes out to an average of 100 damage out of my average 616 damage per game.

Which is pretty low considering the weight and crit space requirement for the thing.

That's the thing with LRM right now, the damage nerf was quoted from the devs as being a temp fix, (fix incoming in May). They did not bother to change the weight of them while reducing the damage however, so they Are the weakest link as far as damage/ton goes.

I miss my CPLT and STK LRM boats, but they are garaged until LRMs aren't LOLRMS..

[Shinikaru]

Target Rich, on 29 April 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

2. Having FUN playing the mechs for the first couple of months...required to learn the insanely complex and constantly shifting matrix of control options for even the simplest weapons.

Bro, have you ever PLAYED a standalone PC (or even console) MW game?
The controls are Basic compared to a fully mapped MW4 game lol.

[Lionheart2012]

HarmAssassin, on 20 April 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Just because you lucked out and got some kills doesn't mean they aren't broken.

Let's see...., just did a 691 damage score with 1 kill. Perhaps owed it to the two ECM commandos keeping things targeted for me. Just another example of how my 2xLRM20 CPLT-C1 remains effective, when tactics are employed.

[Lionheart2012]

Void Angel, on 28 April 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Interesting and amusing, actually. THANK YOU for using lasers! So many times I used to see LRM boats with no close-in arms at all...

Frankly, it's results like yours that let me say the LRM isn't a completely broken system - but consider that both of the video matches lasted long enough for you to shoot most or all of your missile load, and against opponents who were all scattered out and generally trying to snipe. (The Splatcat and SRM-armed Stalker were the exceptions that proved the rule in that regard - they closed to knife range and were slaughtered by your team because they had no support.)

What I saw in the videos was, if you'll accept the flattery from a fellow enthusiast (LRMs are the closest I can get to field artillery,) a highly competent LRM user who was allowed to pound away at the enemy largely without interference - and still did "only" about 500 damage. 500 is good damage, don't get me wrong; it's just that a poptart highlander in that position could pull down at least 700-800 damage with ERPPCs and a Gauss Rifle. Same with other builds for various 'mechs. The system is still usable, but I think it needs a damage increase in addition to the planned missile speed buff. When, as you noted, most players are simply ignoring the counter-systems for LRM (I've been yelled at on these forums for 'wasting tonnage' on AMS in builds I recommend,) it's probably a good indication something's off.

Sadly, I doubt we'll get another change on LRM damage until host state rewind and the speed boost are live - so we'll have to wait and see. It's worth remembering, however, that the current state of LRMs is not intended to be their final mechanics for release. The devs also have to solve why most LRMs are targeting the center torso instead of scattering as they should. Whatever the case, while I sometimes feel as though I'm throwing wet kittens at the enemy with my hybrid Atlas' LRMs, I'm confident that the weapon system's functionality will be restored in the future. =)

Precisely. They are not broken. They are still usable, but perhaps need a tweak to bring better balance to the game. The missile speed buff is definitely needed for taking down lights.

Edited by LHKE2012, 04 May 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[Lionheart2012]

Merchant, on 21 April 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

What were you running?

CPLT-C1 with BAP, TAG, 2xML, 2xLRM20 w/Artemis. Elite with advanced zoom, advanced sensors, and advanced target decay.

[Lionheart2012]

HarmAssassin, on 21 April 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

Too bad he scoreboard doesn't show whether the damage he did came from his lasers/AC's or his missiles lol.

Yep, did a whole bunch with my 2 MLs, and the AC20 I was carrying around in a suitcase (Sarcasm: you can't mount an AC on any of the missile capable Catapults).

[Lionheart2012]

Whoofe, on 23 April 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

hadnt had much success with LRMs until last nite. was finally able to scrape together a team of 4 buddies and we worked as a team to get LRMs on targets. previous matches i found LRMs are tough to use when playing with a bunch of randoms, but with a group over voice comms calling targets, was able to melt a few heavies and assaults down fairly quickly

LRMs mite still need some tweaking, but i dont think a big change is necessary. they certainly dont need to go back to how they were a month ago, which was way overpowered, IMO

Agreed. Again, teamwork and tactics win. LRMs in a team are a potent weapon. This is the way MechWarrior was intended to be played, not as glorified version of Modern Warfare, but as a smart tank battle with communication and coordination. Some tweaks may be needed (e.g. missile speed buff to take on lights), but the system is still usable.

Edited by LHKE2012, 04 May 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[Lionheart2012]

Same configuration as outlined earlier, and yes, all five kills were mine. Interestingly, one Dragon tried to charge me from 1000m, and I took down a 2xAC20 Jagermech before it could get into range. Again, not broken, but perhaps a speed tweak to the missiles is in order.

Edited by LHKE2012, 04 May 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Why do you keep showing scoreboards when they are down a few players?

[aniviron]

ICEFANG13, on 04 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Why do you keep showing scoreboards when they are down a few players?

Pretty sure he is actually trying to prove how bad missiles actually are, but he is being clever about it by sarcastically posting that they are amazing and then showing himself eking out wins 8v6.

[MrTarget]

Well done, now do that in an 8 man.

[Void Angel]

LHKE2012, on 04 May 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Precisely. They are not broken. They are still usable, but perhaps need a tweak to bring better balance to the game. The missile speed buff is definitely needed for taking down lights.

Not completely broken; but they're still not much worth using at present.