99 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 22 April 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

I posted this in another thread where someone else said "there's a limit to what a 0.5 ton weapon should be capable of":


The Small Laser has 7.5 times the DPS that the MG has when you look at DPS per ton. This would directly translate to a 3.0 DPS MG (0.4 x 7.5). Since several MGs can run off the same ammo, 3.0 is a maximum value.

Run the same calculations with four weapons (you don't want to run more than four MGs off a single ton of ammo):
4xMG: 0.16 damage / 3 tons
4xSL: 12 damage / 2 tons (75 times bigger alpha!)

4xMG: 1.6 DPS / 3 tons
4xSL: 4 DPS / 2 tons (2.5 times higher DPS)

2.5 times 0.4 is 1.0, which is then a minimum the MG needs to match the Small Laser.

So that gives us a range of increases between 1.0 DPS and 3.0 DPS to balance the MG. Why don't we split the difference and try out a 2.0 DPS MG?

Are we giving the Machine Gun a Cool down like Small lasers also? Match the MG to the Same stats as a small laser (including cool down). Then I am on board 100%

(Burst of bullets treated just like a beam duration. Cool down, burst again.)

[Tennex]

Inkarnus, on 22 April 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

simple put mgs were changed because of freedom of boating in mw2 mw3 and nobody
wantet to play versus an 100 ton mech stuffed with mgs that killed you in an instance in
there deathzone

thhankfully the hardpoint system prevents that here

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Are we giving the Machine Gun a Cool down like Small lasers also? Match the MG to the Same stats as a small laser (including cool down). Then I am on board 100%

(Burst of bullets treated just like a beam duration. Cool down, burst again.)

I don't know, because that's actually addressing one of the other downsides the MG has; it's continuous-fire nature.
I'd have to run some numbers on that.

Also, that probably would mean the devs would have to re-implement the MG as a ballistic weapon. Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to be a ballistic weapon currently, it looks like it's implemented like a laser. You can test this easily by standing right at the edge of the engagement envelope, 199m away from your target, and fire. You'll see the paperdoll light up immediately once you fire, which means that MG bullets have zero travel time. If they had travel time, it'd take almost two seconds for the bullets to travel to the target with their 100m/s speed.

But that's probably irrelevant to this discussion

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 22 April 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

I don't know, because that's actually addressing one of the other downsides the MG has; it's continuous-fire nature.
I'd have to run some numbers on that.

Also, that probably would mean the devs would have to re-implement the MG as a ballistic weapon. Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to be a ballistic weapon currently, it looks like it's implemented like a laser. You can test this easily by standing right at the edge of the engagement envelope, 199m away from your target, and fire. You'll see the paperdoll light up immediately once you fire, which means that MG bullets have zero travel time. If they had travel time, it'd take almost two seconds for the bullets to travel to the target with their 100m/s speed.

But that's probably irrelevant to this discussion

It should be implemented like a Laser. It is the "burst of bullets" that give a MG its damage. It's how it should work.

100m/s
I thought that looked slow

[Trauglodyte]

How about we do this:

• Buff the damage per bullet to 0.075 putting the DPS at 0.75 (puts the solo MG at 150 damage per ton like other ballistics)
  
• Increase damage done by 25% when paired with another MG in the same location (boosts each to 0.9375 DPS in a pair or 1.17 DPS in a triplet)

It would make for the precursor of the Machine Gun Array, boosts the overall damage of the MG for Lights, and it prevents anything from getting assinine for something like the Jagermech or any other mech to be released.

[stjobe]

Trauglodyte, on 22 April 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

How about we do this:

• Buff the damage per bullet to 0.075 putting the DPS at 0.75 (puts the solo MG at 150 damage per ton like other ballistics)
  
• Increase damage done by 25% when paired with another MG in the same location (boosts each to 0.9375 DPS in a pair or 1.17 DPS in a triplet)

How about we do something simpler instead, like buff the MG to 2 DPS?

I mean really; a 12 DPS, 6 MG JagerMech - if he'd mounted 4 AC/2s instead he'd have a lot more range and the same DPS.

[Trauglodyte]

stjobe, on 22 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

How about we do something simpler instead, like buff the MG to 2 DPS?

I mean really; a 12 DPS, 6 MG JagerMech - if he'd mounted 4 AC/2s instead he'd have a lot more range and the same DPS.

How do you go from making posts about tripling the damage of the MG to 1.2 DPS to increasing the damage done by a factor of 5?

[stjobe]

Trauglodyte, on 22 April 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

How do you go from making posts about tripling the damage of the MG to 1.2 DPS to increasing the damage done by a factor of 5?

Easy. I did the math, I watched the videos, I read about and analyzed other people's experiences with the MG; in short, I examined the evidence.

It all points to 1.2 being too low and that 2.0 is a better place for the MG if it wants to get even close to matching the Small Laser.

Somewhere between 1.0 and 3.0 DPS the MG will match the Small Laser for DPS per ton; it depends on how many you mount and how many share the same ton of ammo. I think that makes 2.0 a good starting point for further tuning.

[General Taskeen]

stjobe, on 22 April 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

I don't know, because that's actually addressing one of the other downsides the MG has; it's continuous-fire nature.
I'd have to run some numbers on that.

Also, that probably would mean the devs would have to re-implement the MG as a ballistic weapon. Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to be a ballistic weapon currently, it looks like it's implemented like a laser. You can test this easily by standing right at the edge of the engagement envelope, 199m away from your target, and fire. You'll see the paperdoll light up immediately once you fire, which means that MG bullets have zero travel time. If they had travel time, it'd take almost two seconds for the bullets to travel to the target with their 100m/s speed.

But that's probably irrelevant to this discussion

I think it would be easy for them to make a ballistic MG.

Copy the AC/2

change the name, tonnage, crit space, damage, cool down, heat, ammo per ton stats, as appropriate, boom-bam-done, assign a program ID of the same as what the current MG was (delete or ";" out old MG programming). Then its just a matter of implementing the graphic (an actual shell, or a shell represented by a "stream" of bullets copied from the current MG)

[stjobe]

General Taskeen, on 22 April 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I think it would be easy for them to make a ballistic MG.

Copy the AC/2

change the name, tonnage, crit space, damage, cool down, heat, ammo per ton stats, as appropriate, boom-bam-done, assign a program ID of the same as what the current MG was (delete or ";" out old MG programming). Then its just a matter of implementing the graphic (an actual shell, or a shell represented by a "stream" of bullets copied from the current MG)

You might enjoy reading this post I made in the MG feedback thread.

Edited by stjobe, 22 April 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[zraven7]

Yeah, I'm with fixing machine guns here.

[Trauglodyte]

I do like the idea of Mech Mortars if they were only restricted to torso locations. But I'd prefer MGs to get boosted. In a way, I get what you're saying Stjobe because the damage is constant instant of an intermitent burst. I just don't now that there will ever be a way to make the MG balanced with the Small Laser unless you put a cool down on it.

[Skylarr]

Trauglodyte, on 22 April 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I do like the idea of Mech Mortars if they were only restricted to torso locations. But I'd prefer MGs to get boosted. In a way, I get what you're saying Stjobe because the damage is constant instant of an intermitent burst. I just don't now that there will ever be a way to make the MG balanced with the Small Laser unless you put a cool down on it.

Quote

Based on the weapon used by infantry for centuries, the Mech Mortar fires a small shell in a high arc that falls onto the target. Though the Mech Mortar was created by the Terran Hegemony, by the time of the Succession Wars it had been relegated to history. Like Long Range Missile launchers, the Mech Mortar could fire on a target directly or indirectly, but LRMs proved to be more reliable, easier to aim, and could fire more projectiles at once.

With the reintroduction of the Anti-Missile System engineers revived the Mech Mortar concept. The munitions used by the mortars, though often possessing limited guidance packages, weren't destroyed by AMS systems in tests. Mortar shells also proved very adaptable, accepting several types of payloads including Anti-Personnel, Armor-Piercing, Flare, Smoke, and Semi-Guided. In addition the sheer number of mortars in use made them very cheap to produce and resupply. These benefits do not overcome the fact that the largest Mech Mortar weighs as much as an LRM-20 and takes up the same amount of space while offering less than half the salvo size and only two-thirds of the ammunition capability.

Why use a Mech Mortar?

[Gaan Cathal]

Trauglodyte, on 22 April 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I do like the idea of Mech Mortars if they were only restricted to torso locations. But I'd prefer MGs to get boosted. In a way, I get what you're saying Stjobe because the damage is constant instant of an intermitent burst. I just don't now that there will ever be a way to make the MG balanced with the Small Laser unless you put a cool down on it.

Not having a cooldown is a bad thing. Really, categorically disadvantageous. There is no upside to it if DPS is equal. None. Not a one. Zip. Nil. Nada.

[Trauglodyte]

Gaan Cathal, on 22 April 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Not having a cooldown is a bad thing. Really, categorically disadvantageous. There is no upside to it if DPS is equal. None. Not a one. Zip. Nil. Nada.

Um, that's why I said that, and I'll quote what I wrote, I don't know that there will ever be a way to make the MG balanced with the Small Laser unless you put a cooldown on it.

[Inyc]

What they should do is just skip ahead tech and get us the Light AC/2 and Light AC/5. At 4 and 5 tons respectively, losing some range for it. They'd be great for lights and mediums with multiple ballistics hardpoints.

Unfortunately we probably will never see them, as they start seeing use in 3068..

http://www.sarna.net...ight_Autocannon

[MonkeyCheese]

Inyc, on 22 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

What they should do is just skip ahead tech and get us the Light AC/2 and Light AC/5. At 4 and 5 tons respectively, losing some range for it. They'd be great for lights and mediums with multiple ballistics hardpoints.

Unfortunately we probably will never see them, as they start seeing use in 3068..

http://www.sarna.net...ight_Autocannon

2 damage 4 tons and 45 rounds per ton, that actually seems a lot more on track for what could actually be usable on a raven/spider/flea/cicada and still allow them to have some decent speed or backup non ballistic weapons.

[Escef]

Vassago Rain, on 22 April 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

ITT: we discover why sarna is bad for you.

Are you going to make an on-topic post at some point, or are you just going to trash talk Sarna?

[TexAce]

seriously now, who modeled the Urbie in the picture?!?

[Egomane]

As this thread turned into just another MG thread, I'll close it and redirect you to the MG feedback thread.
http://mwomercs.com/...lance-feedback/