116 replies to this topic

[Team Leader]

So who else here wants some sweet laser machine guns?

[Adran]

With today being the "launch" day, I feel the need to revive this awesome discussion, as I still feel this is how Pulse Lasers should be.

[Tweaks]

I think this would work well, although the numbers may have to be adjusted based on field test results like you mentioned.

So if I understand correctly, instead of a "quick run by shot weapon", where the burst of damage is concentrated in the same location for a short burst, you'd have to maintain the pulse laser on the same location for a full second (or whatever duration is possible without overheating) in order to do top damage, but that damage would be a lot more than the normal laser version.

This makes the pulse laser much more of a skill-based weapon, and less of a quick pew-pew weapon where aiming is not as critical as it is with normal lasers. I like it!

My 4x MPLs Jenner variant would totally rock the house with that thing, but would also be a lot more challenging!

+1

[Adran]

Tweaks, on 17 September 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

I think this would work well, although the numbers may have to be adjusted based on field test results like you mentioned.

So if I understand correctly, instead of a "quick run by shot weapon", where the burst of damage is concentrated in the same location for a short burst, you'd have to maintain the pulse laser on the same location for a full second (or whatever duration is possible without overheating) in order to do top damage, but that damage would be a lot more than the normal laser version.

This makes the pulse laser much more of a skill-based weapon, and less of a quick pew-pew weapon where aiming is not as critical as it is with normal lasers. I like it!

My 4x MPLs Jenner variant would totally rock the house with that thing, but would also be a lot more challenging!

+1

Actually, to compare the way these Medium Pulse Lasers (assuming all the damage hits one location) work to the normal ones over the course of 10 seconds:

Current MPL: 16 Damage (actual damage is 12, but 16 is the DPS)
New MPL: 25 Damage (actual damage is 25)

Now, this also comes with significantly more heat per second, but you can see how this remake greatly increases the damage. In a quick run-by, the new MPL would only deal maybe 2.5 damage, 5 if you get off two pulses, but it can deal significantly more per second than the current MPL with sustained fire.

[General Taskeen]

Its time for my monthly resurrect a thread time.

Rise thread, rise from your grave! You shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine!

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 October 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The idea has basically been implemented recently, hasn't it?

Except not - they lowered the beam duration and rate of fire, but not anywhere close to where it would need to be to fit the "Laser MG" angle.

[General Taskeen]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 October 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

The idea has basically been implemented recently, hasn't it?

Except not - they lowered the beam duration and rate of fire, but not anywhere close to where it would need to be to fit the "Laser MG" angle.

Maybe if they implement syllogy's pulse lasers as 'alternate manufactured' pulse lasers. I'd use them all the time. Dakka Lasers yeh!

[RandomLurker]

No to MG lasers. Too simple, too easy, not effective enough. Been done before (in MW3), nobody used them because burst damage was more effective.

There's plenty of ideas for pulse lasers, this one the least attractive imo.

[Adran]

RandomLurker, on 06 October 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

No to MG lasers. Too simple, too easy, not effective enough. Been done before (in MW3), nobody used them because burst damage was more effective.

There's plenty of ideas for pulse lasers, this one the least attractive imo.

You clearly misunderstand the way these lasers work. They are equally effective to standard lasers in their own way.

These lasers to have more DPS than standard lasers, but have shorter range and generate more heat. For a brawler, this is a generally superior option to normal lasers. Normal lasers are better when you would actually be able to use burst more effectively, which is at a distance, not in a brawl. A brawl will always favor DPS (thus why AC is currently Meta).

Edited by Adran, 06 October 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[RandomLurker]

Adran, on 06 October 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

You clearly misunderstand the way these lasers work. They are equally effective to standard lasers in their own way.

These lasers to have more DPS than standard lasers, but have shorter range and generate more heat. For a brawler, this is a generally superior option to normal lasers. Normal lasers are better when you would actually be able to use burst more effectively, which is at a distance, not in a brawl. A brawl will always favor DPS (thus why AC is currently Meta).

I disagree. Brawling favors sustained fire- this doesn't necessarily mean DPS. It means not having to stop to cool down, so you can keep drilling the target. Burst weapons are far easier to apply to critical locations, and are more effective in a brawl. They also let you make better use of cover and defensive twisting. This does, of course, depend on how you pilot so some people will be more successful with one type or the other.

What I'm getting from the OP though, is that pulse will be a weapon you basically hold down and it keeps firing. That's not a good brawling weapon, because it forces you to face the target. That completely prevents twisting to defend your CT. It also results in more spread accross the target (depending on how good your aim is of course), resulting in a slower kill then a lower DPS weapon with higher burst.

Pulses are killed by two things right now: tonnage and range. Their mechanics are fine, and they are highly effective in their niche role. The problem is that they are not even partially effective outside of that, and this makes them not worth their tonnage cost. My own preference, which I've thrown around before, is to increase the max range to match the standard lasers, but keep their long range the same. This means standards will still be superior at a distance, but Pulses have a slow damage falloff as range increases. Thus they would stay as precision brawling tools, but would retain some usefulness farther out.

[Adran]

RandomLurker, on 06 October 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I disagree. Brawling favors sustained fire- this doesn't necessarily mean DPS. It means not having to stop to cool down, so you can keep drilling the target. Burst weapons are far easier to apply to critical locations, and are more effective in a brawl. They also let you make better use of cover and defensive twisting. This does, of course, depend on how you pilot so some people will be more successful with one type or the other.

What I'm getting from the OP though, is that pulse will be a weapon you basically hold down and it keeps firing. That's not a good brawling weapon, because it forces you to face the target. That completely prevents twisting to defend your CT. It also results in more spread accross the target (depending on how good your aim is of course), resulting in a slower kill then a lower DPS weapon with higher burst.

Pulses are killed by two things right now: tonnage and range. Their mechanics are fine, and they are highly effective in their niche role. The problem is that they are not even partially effective outside of that, and this makes them not worth their tonnage cost. My own preference, which I've thrown around before, is to increase the max range to match the standard lasers, but keep their long range the same. This means standards will still be superior at a distance, but Pulses have a slow damage falloff as range increases. Thus they would stay as precision brawling tools, but would retain some usefulness farther out.

My own personal experience with Lasers has been bad in general, so I might just be against them on general principle, but I PREFER sustained fire weapons to burst weapons. The higher DPS for this design is something I would prefer to the burst of normal Mediums right now. I don't really consider Pulse lasers to be "precision brawling tools" so much as worse versions of the standard lasers. If I have to get closer, I want to do more damage reliably in less time than I would with a standard laser so I can kill my target that much faster (yes, current Pulse lasers can do this, but its not enough to make it worth it for the weight and range). Yes, I'd have to expose my torso for longer, but they have to be more careful because every second is another tick of damage for MY weapon, which means I can keep pilling on the damage. That is part of why the AC weapons are dominating right now, they don't really have to stop firing, ever, aside from heat management and ammo management. This would basically be like short-range AC2s with no ammo but higher heat.

Edited by Adran, 06 October 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[RandomLurker]

I can only suggest working on your aim then. I have great results from LLas, and LPLas is a vicious light-mech murder machine. The only reason I don't use them is the short range is debilitating for something that takes up the tonnage of a primary weapon. A sustained fire version would be a massive nerf to me.

Edited by RandomLurker, 06 October 2013 - 02:27 PM.

[SmartmuhahaXD]

I think the only adjustment should be the range and cooldowm time for now they should be made into hard and fast hitters !

For the SPL a range increase to long 120m and max 210m and a faster cooldown time 1.75.

For the MPL a range increase to long 210m and max 420m and a faster cooldown time 2.25.

For the LGL a range increase to long 390m and max 680m and a faster cooldown time 2.5.

The duration 0.5 for all.

The heat and damage should stay the same and the starting point for adjustment should be range, cooldown, duration !

[kapusta11]

I'm actually shocked seeing voting results, go ahead ruin them even more, I will laugh landing shots with AC20 on your exposed CT while twisting mine to negate all your damage. All pulse lasers need now is less heat cost as it prevents you from dealing damage when it needs the most and a small damage buff (as all laser do).

Edited by kapusta11, 07 October 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[Zyllos]

kapusta11, on 07 October 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

I'm actually shocked seeing voting results, go ahead ruin them even more, I will laugh landing shots with AC20 on your exposed CT while twisting mine to negate all your damage. All pulse lasers need now is less heat cost as it prevents you from dealing damage when it needs the most and a small damage buff (as all laser do).

And this is why pin point accuracy needs to go.

This "torso twisting" away is only better because you can wait on your weapons to cooldown and not lose any damage. Also, your weapons will always land exactly where they are at, all the time.

Instead, only a few, or individual, shots should land exactly where you aim. If you fire many weapons in a short amount of time, then weapon damage should spread. This will enforce the idea that if you want to deal accurate damage, you either continue facing your opponent to fire a continuous stream of shots from various weapons -OR- you fire all your weapons, or many of them, which will lead to weapon damage spread but you can torso twist away to protect an area.

In doing this, Pulse Lasers will become much better because they would specialize in firing higher, accurate DPS than other lasers.

And, overall, you would see longer TTK on all mechs as weapon damage will be spread out.

[General Taskeen]

kapusta11, on 07 October 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

I will laugh landing shots with AC20 on your exposed CT while twisting mine to negate all your damage.

And then i'll hit your crotch, while you're "twisting," which counts as your CT. Great hitboxes in this game! /sarcasm

I'm not sure why you are "surprised" of the voting results. Think outside the box or do a little math why doncha. If something like Syllogy's pulse laser idea were an alternate manufactured pulse laser to choose from, I would gladly equip them for Dakka Lasers.

Those pulses are very high DPS if you do the math works:

SPL - in 1 Second alone, would do 3 damage - continous fire in 3 seconds 9 damage for 6 heat (far surpassing current SPL)
MPL - in 1 second alone, would do 5 damage - continous fire in 3 seconds 15 damage for 12 heat (far surpassing current MPL)
LPL - in 1.5 seconds alone, would do 8 Damage - continous fire in 3 seconds 16 Damage for 10.5 heat (far surpassing current LPL)

As you can see, they are actually a lot better and a bit over the top perhaps lol. Basically in 1 Second, you are doing close damage of what pulse lasers now do in a duration of 2 to 3 seconds, while continous fire quickly builds up damage.

[kapusta11]

General Taskeen, on 07 October 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

And then i'll hit your crotch, while you're "twisting," which counts as your CT. Great hitboxes in this game! /sarcasm

And if you are any good at brawling you'll cover your crotch by twisting legs.

This math (2-3 times more damage?!) is the main reason people voted 'Yes, I have no idea about how this game works, but OP's suggestion sounds cool because PL will do more damage and I will finally own pugs' or 'Yes, pinpoint accuracy is bad because weapons should not fire where they're aimed at, not to mention that I can't aim at all, I need a weapon that hits everything on the screen and more importantly kills it'. I'm exaggerating but you've got the point. OP was not proposing an alternate manufactured pulse laser he was asking for conversion so stop defending him.

Btw continuous fire lasers already exist in BT universe you just need PGI to implement them.

Edited by kapusta11, 07 October 2013 - 11:06 PM.