45 replies to this topic

[DTrick]

There is a scourge in this game, and that scourge is poptarts. You've seen it. A jump jetting mech rockets above a building or a wall, unloads with PPC or Gauss fire, then falls back to safety before you can bring your weapons to bear.

How do we eliminate this scourge? I have a suggestion. Simply make the targeting reticle jitter or wiggle about the center of the screen when a mech is jump-jetting or otherwise moving at a high velocity- say 90+% of their max velocity.The jitter should be small enough that a skilled pilot aiming at a mech at a medium range while jumping or running at full velocity can still hit the mech, but large enough that a skilled pilot would have great difficulty hitting a specific section.

This feature would reduce the viability of long-range poptart sniping while still leaving jumpjets and poptarting as a viable usage of coverage in a medium or short range battle. It would also mean that fast moving sniper mechs would have to slow down momentarily while lining up a shot, increasing their vulnerability to counter-fire.

This approach makes a great deal of in-universe sense- after all a giant walking robot is going to have massive amounts of inertia in its 20-30 ton limbs- countering that inertia to maintain a steady bead would take more and more energy the faster the mech is going. At high speeds, the servos could simply become overloaded.

One potential unintended side effect of this feature would be that Light mechs running at high speeds would no longer be able to fire accurately. This could easily be addressed by having the jitter effect increase with chassis weight- a 30 ton mech, after all, would require significantly less stabilization than a 90 ton mech.

Edited by DTrick, 23 April 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[Neolisk]

Yes - anything would be better than now. Please add a poll.

[CutterWolf]

Beating this dead horse again............... Jump sniping = part of the game learn to counter it just like all other tactics. Some players are good at it, most suck at it...

[Neolisk]

CutterWolf, on 22 April 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Jump sniping = part of the game learn to counter it just like all other tactics. Some players are good at it, most suck at it...

Imagine in real life you go up 30 meters in 2 seconds, and then down in 1, and your seat is shaking like crazy. Are you feeling okay to shoot perfectly?

Edited by Neolisk, 22 April 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

I came onto the forum to suggest pretty much the same thing. So here are my handful of additional comments on the subject:

A wiggle can both hinder sniping, and raise the skill level on gameplay. While a newer player may compensate for the wiggle by moving closer to targets or stop before firing, an expert player will be able to compensate for the wiggle by learning the wiggle pattern (see below) and excellent eye-hand coordination.

The Wiggle or Jitter is not a random cone of fire (Like in some other shooters), but is the actual reticule moving by small amounts as the mech moves (Larger amounts when Jump Jetting). This way if a skilled player is able to line up a shot on a target and fire, the shot will hit the intended target. The player won't ever feel "robbed" of a good shot because their reticule is always pointing precisely where the shot will go.

The Wiggle is not random when a mech is walking/running, but instead moves predictably. The Wiggle is timed precisely with mech footsteps. The Ultimate Try-Hard could listen to the foot step pattern of his mech running and know precisely when the cursor is going to swing to the Up/Down and Left/Right. So you could get that snap Gauss/PPC sniper shot off while on the run, but it would be damn hard and take a lot of practice.

The wiggle or jitter does not need to be a large amount, probably just .5% of the screen space. Not so much that it is distracting, but enough to hinder aiming while on the run. Furthermore, the wiggle scales with zoom. When Zoomed in, the wiggle increases an amount equal to how far you are zoomed in. e.g. At 5x zoom the wiggle is 5x as much. Thus, while unzoomed the wiggle can be very small. At close-medium ranges many players may not even notice the wiggle exists.

The Wiggle stops when weapons are being fired. This way lasers and other beam-like duration weapons are not made completely useless by the reticule jitter. After all, no one would use lasers if the reticule wiggle made it impossible to land the full beam duration on the desired targeted, while the PPC wouldn't have this problem.

The amount of wiggle will always be subject to gameplay balance. As the OP suggested, the Wiggle may need to be less for lighter mechs, or have a module to reduce the wiggle so that its practically non-existant for light mechs, but still present on Heavy/Assault mechs.

Edited by Eldragon, 23 April 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Eldragon, on 23 April 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

I came onto the forum to suggest pretty much the same thing. So here are my handful of additional comments on the subject:

A wiggle can both hinder sniping, and raise the skill level on gameplay. While a newer player may compensate for the wiggle by moving closer to targets or stop before firing, an expert player will be able to compensate for the wiggle.

The Wiggle or Jitter is not a random cone of fire (Like in some other shooters), but is the actual reticule moving by small amounts as the mech moves (Larger amounts when Jump Jetting). This way if a skilled player is able to line up a shot on a target and fire, the shot will hit the intended target. The player won't ever feel "robbed" of a good shot because their reticule is always pointing precisely where the shot will go.

The Wiggle is not random when a mech is walking/running, but instead moves predictably. The Wiggle is timed precisely with mech footsteps. The Ultimate Try-Hard could listen to the foot step pattern of his mech running and know precisely when the cursor is going to swing to the Up/Down and Left/Right. So you could get that snap Gauss/PPC sniper shot off while on the run, but it would be damn hard and take a lot of practice.

The wiggle or jitter does not need to be a large amount, probably just .5% of the screen space. Not so much that it is distracting, but enough to hinder aiming while on the run.

The Wiggle stops when weapons are being fired. This way lasers and other beam-like duration weapons are not made completely useless by the reticule jitter. After all, no one would use lasers if the reticule wiggle made it impossible to land the full beam duration on the desired targeted, while the PPC wouldn't have this problem.

The amount of wiggle will always be subject to gameplay balance. As the OP suggested, the Wiggle may need to be less for lighter mechs, or have a module to reduce the wiggle so that its practically non-existant for light mechs, but still present on Heavy/Assault mechs.

Well and reasonable posts, both of you. Thanks a lot

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 April 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

I actually like this idea. You want to land precise headshots from great distance - you come to a stop. That would also make high acceleration/deceleration rate more meaningful.

[Panimu]

I like this idea a lot however I feel it should only function as such when using a zoom mode. More in x3 than in x1.5 obv.

[Tyren Dian]

Like this, please submit that directly to Ask the Devs.

[Velius Mischa]

This is a perfectly fair suggestion. I especially like the fact that it retains the poptart as a viable build, but requiring more skill to execute effectively.

As for lights, excepting a few extreme snowflake builds (I'm looking at the PPC toting ravens and jenners out there that try to snipe while going 140+), most lights boom and zoom, engaging at ranges where the proposed amount of non zoomed reticle jitter should have a minimal effect on their ability to put damage on target.

[CutterWolf]

Neolisk, on 22 April 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Imagine in real life you go up 30 meters in 2 seconds, and then down in 1, and your seat is shaking like crazy. Are you feeling okay to shoot perfectly?

This game is nowhere near real life so please stop trying to compare it as so.

Edited by CutterWolf, 23 April 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Bob Random]

I like the suggestions, so far, in this thread. They appear to be very sensible fixes to a, currently, broken mechanic.

It should also be ackonwledged that instead of whinging about the broken mechanic, a viable solution has been proposed that can not be countered.

[Iron Tusk]

CutterWolf, on 22 April 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Beating this dead horse again............... I'm a jump sniper, don't take away my un-fun FOTM mechanic because I like winning with it, no matter how detrimental to overall gameplay it is.

I've fixed your response. It should be remembered that in TT (the source from which the game flows) you incurred penalties to hit while moving and took massive penalties when trying to fire while jumping.

Also, they should mess with convergence. Not every weapon should be striking the exact same point on an enemy when you fire. Yes, yes, lasers can have moving emission crystals or auto cannons can be mounting on some sort of gimbal, but I don't think they should have nearly the precision that they do.

Edited by Iron Tusk, 23 April 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Neolisk]

CutterWolf, on 23 April 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

This game is nowhere near real life so please stop trying to compare it as so.

Then let lasers bend around obstacles and LRMs fly through hills. We also desperately need mechs to walk on their heads. It's nowhere near real life anyway, right?

[DTrick]

Added a poll if you guys want to voice your opinions.

[Mechteric]

When MWLL implemented the jump jet "jitter" (only when going up, smooth when floating down), it really helped balance this aspect of gameplay while not removing jump sniping as a tactic. It basically just made it so you had to expose yourself just a little bit longer, just long enough to give the target a slightly better window of reciprocation. Completely in favor if a similar approach for MWO.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 23 April 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Dantiger]

I don't disagree completely. reticle jitter would be interesting, I hate how the aim is perfectly still right now (as a friend said, that game is like a perfectly still camera with a box bouncing around it)

BUT, it should affect the entire game and not only the jump snipers...
jump sniping is a good tactic, not a easy one. you need to jump, pick a target and aim in a short time spawn while moving. you don't even try to hit a specific part of the mech, you just try to hit something. and the victim is usually that stupid fatlas standing still in the middle of nowhere asking to take some shots in the face

[EvangelionUnit]

Eldragon, on 23 April 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Spoiler

I came onto the forum to suggest pretty much the same thing. So here are my handful of additional comments on the subject:

A wiggle can both hinder sniping, and raise the skill level on gameplay. While a newer player may compensate for the wiggle by moving closer to targets or stop before firing, an expert player will be able to compensate for the wiggle by learning the wiggle pattern (see below) and excellent eye-hand coordination.

The Wiggle or Jitter is not a random cone of fire (Like in some other shooters), but is the actual reticule moving by small amounts as the mech moves (Larger amounts when Jump Jetting). This way if a skilled player is able to line up a shot on a target and fire, the shot will hit the intended target. The player won't ever feel "robbed" of a good shot because their reticule is always pointing precisely where the shot will go.

The Wiggle is not random when a mech is walking/running, but instead moves predictably. The Wiggle is timed precisely with mech footsteps. The Ultimate Try-Hard could listen to the foot step pattern of his mech running and know precisely when the cursor is going to swing to the Up/Down and Left/Right. So you could get that snap Gauss/PPC sniper shot off while on the run, but it would be damn hard and take a lot of practice.

The wiggle or jitter does not need to be a large amount, probably just .5% of the screen space. Not so much that it is distracting, but enough to hinder aiming while on the run. Furthermore, the wiggle scales with zoom. When Zoomed in, the wiggle increases an amount equal to how far you are zoomed in. e.g. At 5x zoom the wiggle is 5x as much. Thus, while unzoomed the wiggle can be very small. At close-medium ranges many players may not even notice the wiggle exists.

The Wiggle stops when weapons are being fired. This way lasers and other beam-like duration weapons are not made completely useless by the reticule jitter. After all, no one would use lasers if the reticule wiggle made it impossible to land the full beam duration on the desired targeted, while the PPC wouldn't have this problem.

The amount of wiggle will always be subject to gameplay balance. As the OP suggested, the Wiggle may need to be less for lighter mechs, or have a module to reduce the wiggle so that its practically non-existant for light mechs, but still present on Heavy/Assault mechs.

to bad that this idea would require an other kind of crosshair, because right now i noticed that PPC shots from my founder hunchbacks arms are allways a bit off as long as i shot them solo (left or right), only when i fire both at the same time, they hit the center of the armeweapon ring ...

anyway, what is about arm weapons when in full torso twist and looking sideways to the maximum aiming point ? are arm weapons suppost to wobble around too ? or did they get a better/smoother aim to balance the fact that they can be destroyed easier then most torso weapons ?

[blinkin]

Panimu, on 23 April 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

I like this idea a lot however I feel it should only function as such when using a zoom mode. More in x3 than in x1.5 obv.

honestly it is not difficult to hit targets out at 1km using just standard optics. the only thing that hinders me is the precision of my trackball at those small scales, but that could easily be overcome with a higher quality mouse or trackball or by slightly reducing sensitivity.

that is why i think this sort of effect should be at all levels, and if you try to run or jump jet while zoomed it should give some people motion sickness and be incredibly disorienting just like the scopes in first person shooters.

[blinkin]

CutterWolf, on 22 April 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Beating this dead horse again............... Jump sniping = part of the game learn to counter it just like all other tactics. Some players are good at it, most suck at it...

OR you could deal with a nerf just like any of the other systems in this game that has been nerfed. how about we add a little skill to your end, beyond jump, pull trigger.

CutterWolf, on 23 April 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

This game is nowhere near real life so please stop trying to compare it as so.

then why not have a consumable that allows you to throw out a poke'ball with a light mech inside. if realism is not an issue then why hold back at all?

Edited by blinkin, 23 April 2013 - 12:10 PM.