34 replies to this topic

[Eisenwald]

I was thinking it might be a good idea to introduce a minimum range for ERPPCs of, lets say, 150m, making them a dedicated long range weapon system.

One of the reasons why we see so many ERPPC builds on the battlefield as of late, is that it is the longest range weapon system without a significant drawback in close quarters.
A minimum range would make the ERPPC less viable for close range engagements, allowing other weapons to close the gap and punishing boaters without backup weapons, leading to more balanced builds all round.

Think about it: They are great for shooting stuff that is far away from you, why should they also be one of the best weapons for fighting up close?

Also bear in mind that PPC damage drop off is linear, unlike LRMs, so at 100m the ERPPC would still deal 6.6 damage (3.3 at 50m).



P.S.:
I also think it would be a good idea to implement a system that punishishes people for running at high heat, but that is a diffrent problem alltogether, pertaining to alpha striking and has nothing to do with PPCs as such.

[Donas]

Not a bad sugggestion, and I see where you're going with it, but not really in favor of this. The ERPPC is the extra high heat version of the PPC, implemented to compensate for the regular PPC's minimum range. It range window is just extended in both directions.

I see where you're going with it, but I'm good with it the way it is.

[Bobzilla]

Makes sense that it would have a minium range like the ppc at least.

Donas, on 23 April 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

Not a bad sugggestion, and I see where you're going with it, but not really in favor of this. The ERPPC is the extra high heat version of the PPC, implemented to compensate for the regular PPC's minimum range. It range window is just extended in both directions.

I see where you're going with it, but I'm good with it the way it is.

With the LL and ERLL you get 36% more heat for 50% more range.
With the PPC and ERPPC you get 36% more heat for 50% more range.
So the heat was not taken into consideration for taking away the min range. Thats just a false statement or extra heat was given to the ERLL for no reason.

If history teaches us anything, they won't add a min range to the ERPPC as I think they should, they'll just make it fragile and explosive like the gauss.

[Neolisk]

No. I think heat penalty is enough.

[Panimu]

Fix your poll btw before someone locks your thread for not following the rules (missing Abstain option)

[Donas]

Bobzilla, on 23 April 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

With the LL and ERLL you get 36% more heat for 50% more range.
With the PPC and ERPPC you get 36% more heat for 50% more range.
So the heat was not taken into consideration for taking away the min range. Thats just a false statement or extra heat was given to the ERLL for no reason.

Its actually even more skewed than that towards the ERPPC, since the PPC and the LL both have 450m Range (subtracting the 90 min off of the PPC to calculate the window at which it does full damage).

At that point to switch to the ER, they both have a 35% heat increase, both starting with a 450m window, where the ERLL gains 225m, and the ERPPC gains 360m.

The ERPPC is more heat efficient than the ERLL per meter of range, even though it puts out higher heat per shot. This would hold with its characteristic of being an instant damage weapon, where the LL is a sustained weapon.

The fact that they don't have identical heat penalties for the same range boost by no means negates the idea that the heat increase for the ERPPC wasnt what was taken into account for dropping the min range. It just means it isnt the same as the LL, which for my money is a good thing. If they were all the same, why take one over the other?

For the folks that like ERLL, be it because they are easier to get damage on or whatever (maybe they just dont have any luck with ballistics style shooting) they can have the ERLL, though they are sacrificing some heat efficiency over range in a trade off for lower heat per shot.

Edited by Donas, 23 April 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Kibble]

I don't use PPC/ERPPCs but I do not agree with adding a minimum range for ERPPCs since that is cannon.

What I do suggest is that PPC/ERPPCs reintroduce the splash damage and reduse the direct pinpoint damage. This is the way they were before and PGI changed it. Doing this would probably correct the current state of the poptarts.

[Donas]

Kibble, on 23 April 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

What I do suggest is that PPC/ERPPCs reintroduce the splash damage and reduse the direct pinpoint damage. This is the way they were before and PGI changed it.

like this.

[WiIIiam]

Kibble, on 23 April 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

I don't use PPC/ERPPCs but I do not agree with adding a minimum range for ERPPCs since that is cannon.

What I do suggest is that PPC/ERPPCs reintroduce the splash damage and reduse the direct pinpoint damage. This is the way they were before and PGI changed it. Doing this would probably correct the current state of the poptarts.

Be careful now, we just had problems with splash damage an we have plenty of "My LRMs Are Now Useless QQ..." threads floating around right now. Min range on an ERPPC is crazy though.

[blinkin]

before the heat profile was screwed with the PPC was 10 heat and the ERPPC was 15 heat.

that is 15 heat for 10 damage, you paid a hefty price for being able to use it under 90m. then people complained endlessly that PPC and ERPPC were useless because noone knows how to manage their damned heat. they were great weapons before. more range than an AC10 on both counts with the same amount of damage, no risk of ammo explosions, almost half the weight, less than half the critical slots required, and unlimited ammo.

i think we should bring back the old heat profile and the players should pay attention to the frigging heat scale.

Edited by blinkin, 23 April 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[awsomedan]

might as well put minmal rang to the guess gun as well that seems to be to strong at close range as well and hard to miss as well

[Almagnus1]

Did a quick check on Sarna.net (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ER_PPC for those interested), and it does not have a minimum range, so let's not put one in the game.

Once we have access to Clan Tech, this is going to be a lot more balanced than it currently is.

[PaladinXIII]

There was another forum just like this. http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/109548-give-er-ppcs-a-min-range/

What it boils down to is that there is more demand for changing the ER PPC because it has become the popular weapon and is currently valued for metagame results. With exception to the recent boating and poptarts, most pilots would take 1 or 2 ER PPC because they wanted both close and long range damage at the cost of higher heat. (I believe that standard load out for the Awesome was 3 PPCs so I wouldn't even say that is boating) What the problem is (and has been with every weapon change/nerf) players have wanted to either deal large amounts of damage in one strike, or be able to deal damage without taking damage themselves, or both. Giving a min range to ER PPC goes not just against canon, but it will not address the main issue. So instead of dealing with the 6 PPC stalker, you now have to deal with more 6 LL Stalkers, which can fire more consecutively before overheating. So then what do we do? give large lasers a minimum distances?

Instead of nerfing weapons like we have, maybe we should push more for heat penalties that force boaters to rethink taking out all of those PPCs without hurting the players that uses one or two effectively.

[blinkin]

6x ERPPC at 15 heat each on a stalker should crank out 90 heat. <-that is enough to shut down most mechs outright. and would end most of the "nerf the PPC" complaints infesting the forums now.

[PaladinXIII]

blinkin, on 23 April 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

6x ERPPC at 15 heat each on a stalker should crank out 90 heat. <-that is enough to shut down most mechs outright. and would end most of the "nerf the PPC" complaints infesting the forums now.

blinkin you have point on that, but to play devils advocate, would that reinforce certain builds like poptarts that can fire a volley and are forced shutdown behind cover or for the PPC boaters that fire and are orced shutdown which prevents LRMs from locking on unless they make room for BAP? I'm asking this at the point it seems that the force shutdown only helps the pilot regardless if the heat per ER PPC is 15 or 11 or anywhere in between.

Edited by PaladinXIII, 23 April 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Panimu, on 23 April 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Fix your poll btw before someone locks your thread for not following the rules (missing Abstain option)

AFAIK "Abstain" is not actually mandatory.

Edit: yep, it's not.

Niko Snow, on 05 March 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

• Question 1 Answer 3 (optional) must read: Abstain

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 23 April 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[blinkin]

PaladinXIII, on 23 April 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

blinkin you have point on that, but to play devils advocate, would that reinforce certain builds like poptarts that can fire a volley and are forced shutdown behind cover or for the PPC boaters that fire and are orced shutdown which prevents LRMs from locking on unless they make room for BAP? I'm asking this at the point it seems that the force shutdown only helps the pilot regardless if the heat per ER PPC is 15 or 11 or anywhere in between.

if they want to pop up take a shot then take a nap, then go up and smack them upside the head while they are sleeping and defenseless. you can be fairly certain that they never moved. also if they are behind a building then most likely the LRM would just slam into the building even with a solid lock.

i just don't see those issues as being actual issues. i like targets that shut down, i get to more carefully place my shots on their tender areas.

[Almagnus1]

That's why my Raven 3L has BAP on it....

Go ahead and pop tart and shutdown.... I'll spot you and let my team eat you.

[MuadXDib]

blah blah TT blah blah ppc minimum range blah blah I actually love it the way it is. if it needs a nerf, it shouldn't be this

[Roughneck45]

ER

Extended Range.

In both directions.

The heat is enough already. SRM's need to not suck so we have weapon diversity, that's all.