14 replies to this topic

[DarkDevilDancer]

Today i had a game with a friend we are just getting into the TT version he for the first time.

Playing IS Vs IS we have no issues with and are having fun but i've always been a clanner at heart so today i played using my wolves and he had my wolfs dragoons.

Knowing clan mechs have the edge i gave him double my tonnage, he had a battlemaster, a thug, an annihilator and 1 scout mech a hussar,I took a timber wolf, a storm crow and a kitfox which was just over half his force it weight.

Once we got into range it all went down hill fast in the first turn the storm crow legged the hussar and killed it the following turn, my timberwolf took on the battle master and after 2 turns had blown off its ppc and half his lasers and had the other torso on one structure point.

We stopped there as i'd taken almost no damage and crippled 2 of his mechs.

So I have to ask how do i make it an even fight, do i have to take just a quarter of his tonnage or are clan mechs just too strong to ever really be balanced against IS mechs.

As i havent played really since the 90's against my brother i'm not really sure if theres an excepted way to balance it out.

[EvangelionUnit]

use the BV of the mechs ... there is a number for each configuration on sarna.net and there is a method of calculating the BV of every configuration ... but i have NO clue how to do it ... google is your friend!

[Zerberus]

Yep, BV calculation is the equalizer and google knows more about it than I do without opening a book and typing out of it.

[Nerroth]

There's an array of BV (and C-bill) offerings over on the Master Unit List website.

The MUL also includes Quick-Strike Unit Cards for many units listed, in case you wanted to try BattleForce or Quick-Strike (or Alpha Strike, once that book arrives later this year).

For example, this is the MUL page for the Timber Wolf Prime.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Thanks guys will look into it, obviously going just off the weight wasn't the way to do it.

[dal10]

in terms of power, 1 star of clan mechs was supposed to be evenly balanced with 1 company of tech 1 inner sphere mechs. however with pinpoint targeting the clans would lose against any semi-organized team. as they could not survive the return salvos with that big of a number disadvantage.

[Karl Streiger]

Yes BattleValue

Your friend hat slow cumbersome Mech, while you used fast moving ones.
He hardly had enough fire power to stop you at range.

As said 1 Star Clan vs Company of Intro Tech (Level 1) of IS.
I'm pretty sure you would have cut him into pieces with a choice of IS Level 2s.

Next time give him some more mobile units: like Griffin 1S or Thunderbolt SE or Dervish Mechs you will see it will not be that easy

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[Cyke]

Yeah, you have to use BV.
BV is not perfect, but it's much better than trying to balance disparate Tech Levels by total tonnage or number of 'Mechs.

You can also try the Honor Rules in the Total Warfare supplement (though I personally have not).
There's different levels of Honor Rules, with varying levels of how restricted the Clan behavior has to be. Adhering to the strictest level throughout the game, the poor Clanners can possibly get focused fire to death, while refusing to return the favor even as they get blown up.
Probably not fun all the time, but give it a shot for fun, and see how it goes.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I was actually following zellbringen during the game, he'd lost the initiative so shot first and so chose which mechs would return fire.

I added up the bv for the two forces and even though I had half the tonnage I had 800 more bv than him which surprised me and made it clear why it was so one sided.

Looking into it they brought this in after I stopped playing in the early 90s which is why I'd not heard of it before, however seems like a good idea.

[Karl Streiger]

You really should use BV 2...and Force Size Multiplicator.... although in large scale battles (company size or bigger) the effect of BattleValue is reduced.

BattleValue 1 was made to balance IS 1 vs Clan. If you have some old calculations you could check those figures again with battlevalue 1....i believe the result will complete differ from the BV 2

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 May 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Yes use BV--and then implement weapons fire every 10 seconds, normal armor levels, turns costing MP, JJs adding +3 to-hit, random hit location tables, etc.

Personally, I find BV to be a game-breaker.

And even in TT BV will not effect things sufficiently. A single-Clan Mech with an ER Large Laser can out-range and take down a nigh infinite amount of IS Mechs worth many times its BV on flat terrain.

These people want MWO to be like the TT with their own home-rules which imo, make the game boring as watching dog turds in the arctic.

Also in TT using BV is optional. Why these people think it is a core, necessary rule mechanic is beyond me. BV was never that great imo. Also the "Values" are subjective- why does an ER Large Laser have a different Battle Value then a Large Pulse Laser or Gauss vs. ER PPC and how are these exact numbers being determined?

Example: Clan ER PPC BV 2.0= 412

IS ER PPC= 228

How was this determined? Why is the Clan version exactly 184 points different? Are these numbers being pulled out of a hat?

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

A Gauss Rifle meanwhile has a BV of 320. I mean again, how are these numbers determined exactly? Why does a GR have exactly 92 less points then an ER PPC?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_rifle

[Adridos]

PaintedWolf, on 03 May 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Yes use BV--and then implement weapons fire every 10 seconds, normal armor levels, turns costing MP, JJs adding +3 to-hit, random hit location tables, etc.

This is Battletech discussion.

Behave accordingly, please.

[PaintedWolf]

Okay according to BV 2.0 a Mist Lynx C has a BV of 1,330: http://www.sarna.net...ynx_%28Koshi%29

The Annihilator has a BV of 1,598: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Annihilator

Yet a Mist Lynx C can take out dozens of Annihilators because they are 1- Too slow to catch up. 2- Do not have a weapon with the range of the Lynx's ER Large Laser---not even close.

BV is subjective and overly abstracted and may very easily not measure anything relevant in a battlefield situation.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 03 May 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Best way to balance Clan vs. IS is to determine the year in which the battle takes place as this will determine what mechs are available. Battle Value has little bearing on reality since its factors are wonky, so the next best thing is to use standard Table of Organization and Equipment for each side. IS regiments are loosely defined as either Line Regiments or Independent BattleMech Regiments with them defined by weight class and named accordingly. Here is the list of each type and don't pay attention to when it states SLDF in the description since the IS Houses incorporated SLDF unit structure back during the Star League days and haven't really changed.

Line Regiment

• Heavy Assault BattleMech regiments consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs and a fourth company of artillery. The main assault force of the SLDF, most corps possessed at least a single Heavy Assault regiment.
  
• Battle BattleMech regiments were the core of most BattleMech brigades, consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.
  
• Striker BattleMech regiments were reconnaissance and breakthrough formations. Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs, they also included a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs, and usually had pairs of ASF assigned for their use.

Independent BattleMech Regiments

• Dragoon BattleMech regiments were composed of heavy-to-assault weight 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft, their primary purpose being to fight against well-equipped enemies.
  
• Hussar BattleMech regiments were the most common of the Independent regiments, composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.
  
• Light Horse BattleMech regiments were primarily reconnaissance units, often the first one dropped onto a world to discover the enemy's strengths. Emphasizing light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts.

Once a unit type is determined then pick out the mechs based upon the weight class from the unit and this will give you a baseline for the battle. Also, IS units incorporate combined arms in their mech regiments, so this would play a major role that favors them over the Clans. This means giving him tanks, infantry, aerospace support, artillery, etc...

Do the same for the Clan side and restrict the clan forces to chassis that they are known to use. Explain that Clans have an advantage in technology that is better in all aspects than IS tech and that cover/combined arms is his best friend in the fight. The clan side should be limited to by Zellbrigen and engage targets singly etc... Nasty ambushes by the IS player isn't a breach of Zell if this battle is prior to Tukayyid. I would even suggest using bidding with the IS player as another Clan commander trying to get the honor for the battle and bidding against the player Clanner or have the Clan player bid forces with the IS player like it should always be done. One final restriction upon the Clan player is that they have no concept of combined arms nor operating as a single unit in regards to tactics. Each clan mechwarrior must be played as an individual and if the Clan player fails to constrain themselves to approved Clan tactics they automatically forfeit the battle and lose to the IS player.

Finally, have fun and realize that this is a game. The Clans will always have the advantage over the IS in terms of tech, but are at a disadvantage in regards to strategy and tactics. That is what ultimately evens out Clans vs. IS.

[ice trey]

Tonnage has been an obsolete method of balancing forces right from the get-go.

Consider: a 1A1 Charger and an 8Q Awesome. Both are 80 tons. Yes, the Charger can run an additional 40% faster than an Awesome can, making charge attacks useful, but it's also got far less armor, little range, and almost even if it were able to hit with all of them with the same target numbers, less than half of the damage that an awesome can do.

If you go by tonnage, these two designs are equal.

If you go by Battle Value, the 1A1 Charger is worth 981 Battle Value. An Awesome is worth 1605. So at the same tonnage, the 8Q Awesome comes out as being worth double the value of a 1A1 charger.

Now, as soon as you end up with technology disparities like between IS and clans, as well as the inclusion of things like Lostech coming into play, it becomes even harder still to balance with Tonnage

Balancing with C-Bills is even further from fair for game balancing, as one XL engine in an assault mech can often cost you as much as a lance of light 'mechs. I suggest it for stuff like Role Playing Game campaigns between a team of players against their GM, but not in a player-on-player matchup.

Now, I'll be straightforward: Is BV perfect? No. Not by any means. However, at this point in time it is the best system for force balancing barring making a giant spreadsheet and logging every possible kind of weapon system and DPT ratios - which ends up being exponentially more complex than it really should be. So for the best spot between balance and time consumption, I think BV is the best choice for force balancing.

Edited by ice trey, 04 May 2013 - 08:06 PM.