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Here's Why We Don't Have The Urbanmech Yet.


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#1 Joker Two

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:28 PM

This also applies to other slow lights, like the iconic Kuritan Panther. Simply put, the 'Mechlab isn't capable of supporting their engines and heatsinks yet.

How do the Classic Battletech construction rules work?:

The 'Mech's engine (I'm only talking about Standard and Extralight Fusion Engines, which make up the vast majority of Battlemech Engines, and are the only ones available in MWO) includes ten heatsinks. These take up no additional weight, and might not end up taking critical slots either. The engine shares critical slots with up to one heatsink for every 25 points of engine rating, so an engine with a 250 rating or greater has all of its mandatory heatsinks integral to the engine (they do not take up any critical slots in the 'Mech. Additional heatsinks can be placed in the engine (where they do not take up critical slots, but still increase the 'Mech's weight) for every 25 points of engine rating over 250.

Furthermore, the 'Mech's Gyro also determines its weight based on the engine. Standard Gyros (the only kind currently available in MWO) weigh 1 ton for every 100 points (or fraction thereof) of the 'Mech's engine rating.

But the 'Mechlab looks a lot simpler than all that math!:

In the 'Mechlab, Standard Heatsinks require 1 ton and 1 crit (Double Heatsinks require 3 crits). Instead of having the 10 mandatory heatsinks as part of the "Engine" item (which would require a complicated system to allocate any "free" heatsinks that don't fit in the engine) the weight of any heatsinks that do not fit in the engine are subtracted from the engine's weight. These heatsinks are then placed normally, weighing 1 ton and taking up 1 crit as if they were normal heatsinks. Then a simple yes/no check of "does this 'Mech have 10 heatsinks" is made, and if the answer is yes, the 'Mech is able to launch. The way we know it works like this is that in the Closed Beta, this check had not been implemented yet, and it was possible to drop in 'Mechs with small engines and less than 10 heatsinks to gain additional weight for other systems (a COM-2D with 7x SHS and 3x SRM-6 is absolutely hilarious).

For Gyros, the actual "Gyro" item cannot be interacted with. Also, it has no weight. To prove this, strip all existing systems and armor from a 'Mech, you will get a weight of 3 tons (the weight of a Standard Cockpit which includes the Sensors and Life Support) plus whatever the weight of the internal structure is (1/10th the maximum weight of the 'Mech for Standard Internals, Endo-Steel halves this and rounds up). Because the Gyro's weight is entirely determined by the engine rating, the weight of the Gyro has been included in the weight of the "Engine" item in the 'Mechlab.

How does this affect my Urbanmech (or Panther)?:

The reason these 'Mechs would be so hard to implement with the current 'Mechlab is that their engines have very low ratings. The PNT-9R Panther has a 140 Standard Fusion Engine. This weighs 5 tons, and the Standard Gyro required weighs 2 tons. The engine has 5 internal heat sinks (25x5=125, 140-125=15, not enough for another heatsink). This means that the 'Mechlab decreases the "Engine" item's (and by this I mean engine and gyro combined) weight by 5 tons, since 5 Standard Heat Sinks would have to be placed in other critical slots. Therefore, a 140 Standard Fusion Engine would weigh 2 tons in the 'Mechlab (5 as per CBT, +2 for the Gyro, -5 for external HS).

But wait, that works out! I just have to put those other 5 Standard Heatsinks (or Doubles) in normally! It still weighs the same, right? Then why does the 'Mechlab only have engines with a rating of 150-400?

The problem comes when you try to use Extralight (XL) engines. These halve the engine's weight (rounded up) at the cost of side torso critical slots. Remember that the construction still follows the tabletop game's rules, so only the actual engine weight is halved, not the weight of the engine+gyro-some heatsinks that is an "Engine" item in 'Mechlab. If you took that stock Panther and replaced it's Standard Fusion Engine (SFE) with an XL Engine, that would decrease it's engine weight to 2.5 tons. Then you add the gyro weight of 2 tons for 4.5 tons. Unfortunately, the way the 'Mechlab is programmed you then need to subtract the weight of 5 Single Heat Sinks, which is 5 tons, greater than the weight of the engine. The 'Mechlab can't handle an item that has negative weight, especially based on how it could be exploited (see the part in the second section about Closed Beta). The Devs apparently want to have a Standard and XL Engine availabe for every rating that is possible, which is why they can't currently go below a rating of 150. (A 150 XL weighs 3 tons, +2 for the gyro, and it holds 6 internal heatsinks, so it only needs to subtract 4 tons for the mandatory heatsinks. This leaves an "Engine" item weight of 1.)

That's the Panther though, I want my Urbanmech!

The UM-R60 has a Standard Fusion Engine with a rating of 60. This weighs 1.5 tons, requires a 1-ton gyro, and holds only two internal heatsinks. If implemented in MWO, it's "Engine" item weight would be -5.5 tons. In all likelihood, the 'Mechlab is not programmed to use items with negative weights (Endo-Steel doesn't actually have a negative weight, when you "add" it you are actually replacing a heavier item.

So we'll never get the Urbanmech?!?

Not necessarily. Updates to the User Interface and the 'Mechlab are expected this summer or fall. These might include support for smaller engine ratings, although it is probably not a high priority. Also the possibility for such extreme customization (I have problems with the ability to install engines of any rating, since it opens engine/gyro weights up to exploitation) means that a UM-R60 would essentially be a SDR-5K with fewer hardpoints and a much lower maximum engine rating. However, some of the other Urbanmech variants would have unique hardpoints, and of course there are advantages to such a compact profile. It is somewhat telling, however that the only 'Mech statue or bobblehead that does not depict a 'Mech included in-game is that of the Urbanmech.

Edited by Joker Two, 24 April 2013 - 06:04 AM.


#2 Merky Merc

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:31 PM

Or it's because a 32 kph Light mech is going to be instagibbed by everything, and they could put in many mechs that aren't complete jokes before they get around to putting in that tin can.

Though I suppose one could make the argument that the spider and soon the flea, are worthless lights as well. But at least their speed means they can out run a backpeddling atlas.

#3 C E Dwyer

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:09 PM

We don't have the Urban mech because, if it used its 'canon' battlemech tactic's, jumpjets,the Chat on the maps would be filled with Whackamole coments..

For those not familiar with the mech, it looks like R2-D2 with an AC10


Bring on those Moles !

#4 verybad

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:11 PM

It's because PGI is afraid of the Urbanmech.

#5 HarmAssassin

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:17 PM

If they're smart, they never will introduce the Urbanmech. It was a joke. It is a joke. It will always be a joke. Why would anyone EVER choose to play one unless they were trying to sabotage their own team?

#6 Thundercles

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:08 PM

View PostHarmAssassin, on 23 April 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

If they're smart, they never will introduce the Urbanmech. It was a joke. It is a joke. It will always be a joke. Why would anyone EVER choose to play one unless they were trying to sabotage their own team?


I believe that there was a variant (originally made as a joke, but due to someone with a sense of humor, technically canon) equipped with nuclear launch capability. Maybe PGI doesn't want to introduce nuke boating.

#7 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

A very well researched hypothesis.

But, I am afraid incorrect.

The REAL reason we get no UrbanMech?

Because the only thing that keeps Bryan up at night with cold sweats and night terrors worse than the thought of the dreaded 6 MG Spider, is the sheer unholy terror of having to face me, in my UM-R65DD "Deputy Dawg" UrbanMech.

Nice research though. :)

#8 Tennex

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

the system is flawed if it can't implement all of the mechs.

#9 Victor Morson

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:06 PM

View PostHarmAssassin, on 23 April 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

If they're smart, they never will introduce the Urbanmech. It was a joke. It is a joke. It will always be a joke. Why would anyone EVER choose to play one unless they were trying to sabotage their own team?


Urbanmechs = Comedy gold in MW4:HC pugs. Killing a terrible player's Daishi in a tin can was always worth it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 23 April 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#10 FrostCollar

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostHarmAssassin, on 23 April 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

If they're smart, they never will introduce the Urbanmech. It was a joke. It is a joke. It will always be a joke. Why would anyone EVER choose to play one unless they were trying to sabotage their own team?

Not a bad point to make in the Closed Beta. But then the Spider was implemented.

#11 TOGSolid

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostHarmAssassin, on 23 April 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

If they're smart, they never will introduce the Urbanmech. It was a joke. It is a joke. It will always be a joke. Why would anyone EVER choose to play one unless they were trying to sabotage their own team?

Four words: All Urbanmech Team Deathmatch

#12 Terror Teddy

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostMerky Merc, on 23 April 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Or it's because a 32 kph Light mech is going to be instagibbed by everything, and they could put in many mechs that aren't complete jokes before they get around to putting in that tin can.


You forget that this is a very specialized mech for CITIES with plenty of COVER.

It's designed to be in an enviroment where it has constant cover and where it's enemies canot go much faster than itself - not to mention 360 degree torso twist making it a 30 tonne moving turret that you cant really sneak up behind.

In a cityscape like river city it would have plenty of buildings to duck around and would be able to fight Jenners and Ravens with ease with it's AC/20 and be ambushers against anything heavy lumbering in amongst the buildings.

It would of course be useless on Alpine or Tormaline unless it managed to utilize cover enoughtto close the range and keep iself in cover.

#13 Kanatta Jing

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

Urbanmechs and Panthers are big guns mounted on cheap frames. They are by definition, not fast.

At worst the engine weight could bottom out at 0 tons. People might whine about it for 5 minutes for not making sense but then they would stop.

A not fast like mech is not a scout. At the very best it is a low profile sniper or brawler. Without instituting a "spot check" to targeting they won't have any serious advantages.

They just don't make tactical sense in this game.

#14 Goldhawk

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

I have little experience with the Urbanmech, but for the stats. It's terrible. But it's so terrible that people want the chance to either A) make it better, or :) Troll with the Urban mech.
I will consider the Urban mech's impact into the game at this very moment.

What changes?





Nothing.

The Urban mech brings nothing to the game except for a free kill to the opposing team.
Each variant has weaponry to bear yes, but they do not have enough for the long term engagements of MWO.
I can see this, YEA you put a Gauss rifle on your Urbie!.
Anndddd your ammo's gone, and that Raven you shot with the Gauss is looking mightly pissed off. Ahhh Ahhh Streaks! Oh God ouch! Ouch! Wait. I have a small laser! take that! Zzzzzttt. That did nothing.

Here's another thought. If you were to put the current light mechs in a battle royale, who comes out presently on top? It would probably be a tie between the Raven and the ECM commando. (JUST A GUESS NOT ACTUAL TESTING). At least the Spider and the Jenner can compete with both manueverability and weaponry and some times come out on top. The Urban mech, low speed, probable slow turning radius would lead to the mech dying as the 1st target of opportunity after the laughable Raven 4x.
But the Urbie has a big gun!
(With limited ammo) Once it's gone, so are your chances of living.

But the Urbie was made to engage larger mechs!
IN A CITY. How useful is your Urbanmech on Alpine Peaks? The Urban mech was made to engage tanks and infantry. Enemy mechs were usually not an issue when the Urban mechs worked in packs. Still in that case, there is a better frame for city fighting. It's called the Hunchback.

I can make R2-D2 with the mech!
I have no answer for that, but you are a liability on the team. But oh look! I just painted my Atlas gold, so now I'm C-3P0, and I can still be helpful to my team!


I know I will never silence those who want the Urban mech, since it is a colossal joke in the Mechwarrior universe. I hope the devs never put it into the game. Why? Because I enjoy winning and having an Urbanmech on my team is the farthest thing from that.

Edited by Goldhawk, 23 April 2013 - 08:58 PM.


#15 Terror Teddy

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostKanatta Jing, on 23 April 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:


They just don't make tactical sense in this game.


Yet...

What is needed are some huge cramped city maps, not like river city but HUGE *** BUILDINGS with narrow streets and cramped alleys.

#16 C E Dwyer

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:27 AM

View PostGoldhawk, on 23 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:



I can make R2-D2 with the mech!
I have no answer for that, but you are a liability on the team. But oh look! I just painted my Atlas gold, so now I'm C-3P0, and I can still be helpful to my team!



Your wrong C3-PO is a Shadowhawk


I think you missed the tone of my conversation, I think the urban mech in MWO, would be an awfull idea, in turn based it was quite punchy, as it had alot of armour, to keep it alive, in turn based is was a light mech to worry about, here it would be a laughing stock, anywhere but a city map. (which is what is was supposed to be)

If we ever got to pick our maps or Pugs stopped acting like Pugs, and said ohh we have an Urban mech we should support it and not go charging off as fast we can it could possibly punch above its weight in open maps it is going to be a liability.

Actually the more I make this post the more I'm convinced that there should be an Urban mech in the mix, as it would be fun, and I think you'd see quite a few, in battles, at least to start with, for the novelty value.

People would try and camo it so it looked like R2-D2 or a mole or any small critter. I'd camo mine pink and call it The Molerat, already creating nose (body) art for it as I type hmm.. semi naked model with pink rat ears and tail wearing a hard hat work boots and doing something intresting with a torch (holding it in her mouth pervs).

Yup Urban mech should be in the game..bump it up a bit forget the Clans.

But mostly to annoy those people that can only enjoy things if they win, these people should be playing in the campions league or the NFL or well anywhere but a software TOY GAME !

#17 Terror Teddy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:37 AM

View PostCathy, on 24 April 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:


But mostly to annoy those people that can only enjoy things if they win, these people should be playing in the campions league or the NFL or well anywhere but a software TOY GAME !


Hear hear.

I mainly want it to have FUN with. I really cant get people who ONLY are in it to WIN.

Besides, there´s something about being an underdog but I´d really like to see how well a 360 degree torso twisting mech would do against other lights.

LRM´S would kill it though as it is too slow to dodge.

#18 Joker Two

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:34 AM

There are plenty of reasons, gameplay-wise, why slow lights would be difficult to implement in an effective manner. Personally, I don't think they will be useful until community warfare comes out, hopefully with attack/defend missions and such. If you know you're defending, only going 32 or 48 isn't so bad.

As far as implementing the Urbanmech in particular, I think they could find ways to make it useful. A short, compact profile, extended torso twist (maybe even the first 360 degree arc) higher turning ratios, and better weapon tracking. The ability to go to passive sensors and denser urban maps would also help greatly.

Right now though, I agree, they would die horribly in the current meta (although maybe not as horribly as some people think). Just wanted to discuss why they can't be implemented yet, and how they would be in the future (gameplay and programming-wise).

#19 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:41 AM

Why we don't have a UrbanMech yet...

Only 2 Mods right now???

#20 Lee Ving

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:00 AM

Excellent post other than misuse of there in the second to last sentence :wacko:





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