21 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Here were the questions

Spoiler

What is the unique difference between MWO and all Mechwarrior Games before?

What is one of the more serious problems MWO suffers from?

I think that you have a Skill Tree that affect the abilitys of your Mech is the single most unique proposition of this game.
I knew that there is another Skill Tree in the pipeline...so i don't have any expectations about this one.

However actual the Skill Tree...is simple...grind long enough and you have all abillitys at all of your Mechs... you don't have to fear consequences and there is no difference between the skilling of a Atlas or a Catapult or a Raven...the only difference is YOU.

Do you really want to make no real decisions at all?

The second question was aiming in the direction of the "free" but not really free - but free enough to cause serious game breaking issues - MechLab.

There have been several suggestions in the past...and the most Cons was because - limiting MechLab is limiting fun - i will not evaluate on this opinion.

Proposal

---

The MechSkill Tree is splitted into 4-5 Sections

• Engine
  
• Mobillity
  
• Gunnery
  
• Tech

Engine: will increase the power of your Engine

• making you faster,
  
• raising the heat cap
  
• raising the heat dissipation
  
• increasing the maximum installed engine rating
  
• increasing the durability of your engine - finaly give you even the chance to reduce the crits on a XL engine (so that yo can survive a lose of a side torso)

Mobility: will increase the mobility and reaction time of your Mech

• faster turning
  
• faster twisting
  
• faster arm movement
  
• reduced "negative" effects of your movement (- Jitter...hope there will be one soon)
  
• even in the highest tier allowing you to mount jump jets

Gunnery increase the fire power of your Mech

• faster cycle times
  
• less heat per shot
  
• more ammunition per ton
  
• better convergence (when it will be a more serious problem)
  
• in highest tier ... marksman perk - (some how working like the TC in MW3)

Tech the ability to modify your Mech
I will need more explanation for this topic.

---

To make it figurative i will use the hardes MechLab restriction i can think of.
YOU are not allowed to change anything at your Mech.
With the first skill point - aktivating that Sub-Tree:

• You can mount other items. As long as they are not overexceeding the criticals or weight of allready mounted equipment.
  
• You can not mount another Engine
  
• You can mount other Single Heatsinks if there were other equipment weighting 1ton and 1 crit
  
• You can hardly mount DHS when the Mech had them from the beginning
  
• You can increase or decrease the armor as you like
  
• EXP1:
  
  • A K2 can switch the PPC for Large Laser and MPLAS
    
  • the MG will change towards Small Lasers
    
  • the Medium Lasers and MG Ammo are replaced by Heatsinks
• EXP2:
  
  • Same K2 can switch the PPCs for 3 MPLAS each
    
  • Leaving anything else the same
    
  • adding 2tons of armor

Then at Tier 1:
You can modify Structure, Heat Sink Type or Electronic Warfare Stuff or Modify the Weapon Loadout

• Structur Tier 1
  
  • Endosteel - place were ever you want but they are fixed
    
  • FerroFebrit - place were ever you want but they are fixed
    
  • CASE - mount or unmount once
• Heat Sinks Tier 1 switch and modify heat sink loadout once
  
• EW Tier 1
  
  • add TAG
    
  • add Artemis
    
  • add AMS
• Weapon
  
  • Mount any weapon of your liking in any location you want...after the mounting this is the new loadout...every changes form Tier 0 are now affecting this loadout

Tier 2

• Structur Tier 2
  
  • Endosteel - first point as Tier 1, second point ... as it is actual in the MechLab
    
  • FerroFebrit - first point as Tier 1, second point ... as it is actual in the MechLab
    
  • CASE -first point as Tier 1, second point ... as it is actual in the MechLab
• Heat Sinks Tier 2 as it is actual in the MechLab
  
• EW Tier 1
  
  • add TAG
    
  • add Artemis
    
  • add AMS (even a second one)
    
  • add ECM
    
  • add BAP
• Weapon
  
  • Mount any weapon of your liking in any location you want...after the mounting this is the new loadout...every changes form Tier 0 are now affecting this loadout

---

Your part

This ideas are only a roughly sketch.
I do not now how many points you should earn maximum.
What are the steps between the XP:
500...750...1125?

It will allow you to create a complete Mech like you want it.
Ballistics on a Awesome
2 Gauss Rifles on a Atlas + JumpJets

You can create what ever you want...but you will not be able to activate all Skills...so you have to choose wisely...you can hardly get a omnification...maybe with the Maximum Tier a the TechLab Tree....

There could also be cross links - for example from fast firing in the gunnery tree towards the better heat cap in the engine tree...
you can also activate both trees....

So the choice is yours... free MechLab - and switch configuration between the battles - or a balance between some modifications and more mobility with more accurate but stock weapons.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 April 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

What is the unique difference between MWO and all Mechwarrior Games before?

It is 10 years older than all those other games?

Quote

What is one of the more serious problems MWO suffers from?

really crappy Riddles?

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't know.

It's PvP only?

Previosu mechwarrior title has always had energy weapons as hit-scan weapon with no duration, making pop-tarting and boating/sniping very popular and effective, as a single shot could tear of limbs, but MW:O deliberately gave lasers a beam duration to avoid that.
And now we're back to pop-tarting/boating/sniping?

[Karl Streiger]

Ok i made a table:
As said it is a very roughly sketch....you have 80 Skills...some are overlapping, as said maybe there could some cross references too.


The XP per level step is calculated with this formula~ (level*3)^3+500
Level 1 = 527
Step to Level 2 needs (2*3)^3+500 = 716
Means Level 2 after 1243 XP
Level 8 at 38.992 XP
Level 12 at 170.268 XP

Example 8:
Why 8?
I want to create a Jump Capable Cestus Like Mech out of a K2 (Gauss, 2 Large, 2 Medium Laser)
I need EndoSteel, XL Engine, Weapon, DHS, JumpJets

So i spend a points for:

• Tech
  
• Tier 1 Structure
  
• Tier 1 Heat Sinks
  
• Tier 1 Engine
  
• Tier 1 Weapon
  
• Tier 2 Engine
  
• Tier 3 Engine
  
• Tier 4 Engine

I can now switch between engines...and remove or add jump jets as i like


Every build you know is possible with that system...it last only longer.
Next advantage is: you don't need to skill 3 Mechs of a kind.
Just a single Mech, but with different configurations it is possible that your complete arsenal are Catapults K2 only...
GaussCat
BoomCat
Ultra Cat
or my Cestus from above
or a K2 that is featuring a mixed loadout like the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tempest

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 April 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[El Bandito]

I support diversity. However, diversity brings a lot of balance problems, which PGI sucks at dealing with.

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 25 April 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

I support diversity. However, diversity brings a lot of balance problems, which PGI sucks at dealing with.

Hm...it will make it harder to compare Mechs... a GaussCat pilot at level 20 for example would have choosen the gunnery tree that cause him to do more damage, while a GaussCat that choose the Engine ore Movement Tree would be more mobile or thougher.
Maximum Level ist 90....so a pilot in that position should be really allowed to use anything and everything...to create the moste imbalanced build if he can...because it will last the same time as it last acutally to bring 7807 Mechs to Master Level

[Karl Streiger]

19 hours and page 5....
* PUSH*

However I have figured out that there has to be a requirement.....
There has to be a Test Lab Simulation:

Means you have full access to all Mechs and all the Stuff and can run it on the Testing Ground. Because you need an idea were
to move.

Maybe the spend skill points should be able to reset for Cbills or MC

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 April 2013 - 11:04 PM.

[Deathlike]

No. Customization is the reason why the Mechlab exists. Reducing those options will unfortunately cripple newbies further. If you cannot use DHS once you get your first mech, you're on the wrong side of winning.

[Karl Streiger]

Deathlike, on 25 April 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

No. Customization is the reason why the Mechlab exists. Reducing those options will unfortunately cripple newbies further. If you cannot use DHS once you get your first mech, you're on the wrong side of winning.

Hm, no i think you getting it wrong.

Yes you have to fight...for a little while before you are able to get DHS...but we are talking about 1243 XP.
All you need is a couple of good fights.

But you also can keep the SHS...but increase theire abilitys...even both paths can be choosed.
Actually DHS are simple better...and the Skill tree is just increasing the difference....

[El Bandito]

Karl Streiger, on 26 April 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Hm, no i think you getting it wrong. Yes you have to fight...for a little while before you are able to get DHS...but we are talking about 1243 XP. All you need is a couple of good fights. But you also can keep the SHS...but increase theire abilitys...even both paths can be choosed. Actually DHS are simple better...and the Skill tree is just increasing the difference....

PGI needs to fundamentally rethink SHS and DHS balance. Not to mention AC 5 and 10. First thing PGI needs to do is the throw out the TT rule book. This is not a TT game and PGI sure as hell does not have to follow the exact tonnage or crit spaces defined in TT.

[Jukebox1986]

Karl Streiger, on 24 April 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

• increasing the durability of your engine - finaly give you even the chance to reduce the crits on a XL engine (so that yo can survive a lose of a side torso)

• reduced "negative" effects of your movement (- Jitter...hope there will be one soon)

• less heat per shot
  
• more ammunition per ton
  
• in highest tier ... marksman perk - (some how working like the TC in MW3)

• You can mount other items. As long as they are not overexceeding the criticals or weight of allready mounted equipment.

I dont like those ideas at all. Less critspace for an XL, are you insane? Why would anyone go for a standard engine?
Less heat per shot, more ammo per ton? MARKSMAN PERK?

This is not a RPG.

Edited by Janus Wealth, 26 April 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 26 April 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

PGI needs to fundamentally rethink SHS and DHS balance. Not to mention AC 5 and 10. First thing PGI needs to do is the throw out the TT rule book. This is not a TT game and PGI sure as hell does not have to follow the exact tonnage or crit spaces defined in TT.

You can assist them by starting of talking about the Medium and the Heavy Autocannon
But you are right - even I realized that you only have the choice to stay true...or to make a complete other system - that is able to convert the "How it should work in RealTime feeling" - fixed values won't allow that.

Janus Wealth, on 26 April 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

I dont like those ideas at all. Less critspace for an XL, are you insane? Why would anyone go for a standard engine?
Less heat per shot, more ammo per ton? MARKSMAN PERK?

This is not a RPG.

Clan XL-Engine?
And hopefully they managed it some how that a critical hit on an Engine will cause some really serious issues.
(3 critical hits = engine destruction - even if your complete torso is still intact....)

The other things - why not. And it has the feeling of a RPG....you gain XP...you can magically increase the ability of your Mech - so where is the reason not to improve that feeling to more as just a mockup.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 April 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Deathlike]

Karl Streiger, on 26 April 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Hm, no i think you getting it wrong.

Yes you have to fight...for a little while before you are able to get DHS...but we are talking about 1243 XP.
All you need is a couple of good fights.

But you also can keep the SHS...but increase theire abilitys...even both paths can be choosed.
Actually DHS are simple better...and the Skill tree is just increasing the difference....

You're missing the point. If this system is COMPOUNDED with the current mech tree SYSTEM AND the trial mechs... you are adding a crapload of handicaps for a system that requires way more work than it should.

If the proposed system improved aspects of the current system with small tweaks (like 5% reduction in cooldown for a medium laser), I could buy. However, trying to get "XP" so I can't use Endo-Steel for a period of time does not make sense to me.

Plus, your system is otherwise really broken (especially with the current heat system). Your idea would just turn 6 PPC stalkers into gods.

[Karl Streiger]

the xp just give you something to work for. look actually you made 57,000 Xp and thats it.
A more restrictive Skill Tree force you to choose between skills or lab modifications you can't have both with 57,000 xp.

the choice is up to you. PPC Stalker need minimum of lvl 12 and there are no bonus systems for heat tweak skills etc.
So instead of skiling 3 stalkers you skill only one.

Of course with no lvl restriction you will have a god 6 ppc jump sniper that can lay a barrage of blue fire every split second.

But in the same time you would have been able to skil 8000 other mechs.
if someone's is able to make such grind he deserves that

[Big Giant Head]

more grind = better mech customization
it is that simple

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I agree with the concept, but TL;DR.

Role Warfare should include options to improve abilities associated with those roles, rather than just mech-specific "efficiencies".

[Karl Streiger]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 28 April 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I agree with the concept, but TL;DR.

On of my biggest mistakes - walls of text in bad language and grammar...

May I ask, if you want to split between pilot and mech or use both in combination?

Skill one pilot (like it is with GXP Modules) actual means he can use that skills on every Mech.
On the other hand when there is a 'real' Skill Tree - you will hardly be able to go for more as a single role. (for example: Assault - Specialist or Scout Pack Leader)

So you have to create different characters... what isn't the worst thing.

Skill a Mech are just technical improvements for that Mech - they could work for every Mech in the same way... what you made is up to you. (optimized loadout OR optimized behaviour in combat - or someting of both)

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Karl Streiger, on 28 April 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

May I ask, if you want to split between pilot and mech or use both in combination?

I did skim through your posts ... but IMO, too many points and too much detail to nitpick, and it looked like the higher level skills may be a bit too much ... but I don't really have a better solution.

Since PGI seems to want to keep the pilot aspect of the game skill-based, perhaps the pilot could gain different awards for different acheivements in game ... taking the roles from the original Dev Blog Post: http://mwomercs.com/...3-role-warfare/ ...
- Pilots with "Scouting" bonuses might get increased rewards for spotting a target, TAG/NARC assists, etc.
- Defenders ... Defensive and Savior kill rewards
- Assaulters ... Damage and Kill rewards
- Commanders ... team wins, etc.

I'm sure I could spend some time figuring out new and interesting ways to earn rewards and unlock other ways to earn different awards, but if you start messing with the information flow (scouts), accuracy/damage (defenders/assaulters), etc., you're talking about increasing a player's ability to affect the battlefield not because they're more skilled, but because they've either paid more or played more. That's either pay-to-win -- which I oppose, strongly -- or gives guys who have been playing longer even more of an advantage over new players (in addition to mech efficiencies, personal experience, and skill).

It will be interesting to see what comes out with acheivements and Community Warfare ... I have a feeling that these will somewhat satisfy the personal progression desire without affecting the game too much.

[Karl Streiger]

I think every body of us dreams to become a legendary player... at least you only get there when you earn XP...it doesn't matter for me if you earn those XP on a single chassis, or on dozens and choose to spend MC to convert them.

Have done just come calculation:
Lets assert that the Mech Skill - Engine will give you 2% HeatCap, 2% Heat Dissipation, 1% Speed
Lets assert that Heat Dissipation is caluclated by account of Heatsinks * Factor(0.1 SHS, 0.2 DHS) and Heat Cap is dependend on the numbers of mount heatsinks (18 SHS increase Heatcap by 16 and 12 DHS increase heat cap by 4)

A stock Awesome that choose to skill Engine and HeatCap (10) and HeatDissipation (10)
will have a Heat Cap of 66 * 1,12 = 74
and Heat Dissipation of 2.8 * 1,12 = 3,125
And is able to move 47.5 kph

Another player decide to take the MechLab Tree for his first 3 lvl ups
With 290 Fusion and 21 DHS
heat Cap of 52
Heat Dissipation of 4.2
Speed of 52,2 kph
Additional he can upgrade his PPC with ER-PPCs.

Both are viable builds...
first can 3 Alpha Strikes as fast the weapon recharges before needing a break for cooling (with 10 heat per weapon)
second can't do 3 Alpha Strikes that fast (only 2)...but cooling is much faster and with some acceptable breaks between triggering the weapons he can hold up a good substained rate of fire.

[Boyinleaves]

I'm not sure I'd agree with linking 'Mech skills with customisation options, but it's an interesting idea.

I would very much like to see the skill trees become A) 'Mech specific, B ) Far more in-depth, C) Offer hard choices between mutually exclusive options and D) Promote role warfare.

Also, if they make such a system, skill respecs could be used as an XP, C-Bill or GXP sink, none of which they really have currently. All of the current uses for our currencies are finite, apart from consumables, which mostly aren't that useful.

There are a ton of things that PGI could do with skill trees; currently, our options are so limited and so quick to max out that they are essentially irrelevant. With the new 2XP boost, maxing out a 'Mech only takes a couple dozen games, and given that it's a finite state system, it's pretty unlikely that people will be running 'Mechs without full trees unlocked unless they're leveling a new variant.


Bah, I have to stop using B ) for my points, stupid smileys are killing me.

Also, appreciate the effort you've gone to Karl, even if I don't agree with everything.

Edited by Boyinleaves, 25 August 2013 - 10:16 PM.