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Jagermech Jm6-S


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#1 deff lizzard

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:27 PM

I've been using Jagers for the past 2-3 weeks and I figured I'd share my build, along with a few of the lessons I've picked up.

The build: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=67&l=57a49a4b7c66cf6b3973acc73dc7ecce35e1037a

The breakdown:
1.) The Engine

I've used a lot of engines in this 'Mech. STD 225, STD 250, XL 300, and XL 280. I've settled on the XL 280 for the following reasons:
a.) Tonnage. At 14 tons, it gives me enough room to fit my primary and secondary weapon systems
b.) Speed. This is a relatively close range mech. This is as slow as it can go without being impossible to use.

Yes, it is more vulnerable to dying. I typically die to side torsos being taken out, and I usually die between 35-45% of my matches. This is okay.

2.) The Weapons

I've tried a lot of things with the jager. Quad AC/2s, quad AC/5s, tri UAC/5s, dual AC/20s, AC/20 with dual AC/5s...etc. A load out of 2 AC/20s and 3 MLAS has consistently given me the highest match scores and allows me to take on distracted Assault 'Mechs without fear. The AC/20s are obviously the primary weapons. They generate little enough heat that they can be fired until ammunition is depleted at maximum rate even on maps like Tourmaline, and they alpha high enough to quickly rip out key components of Assault 'Mechs and to cockpit pretty anything with an easy enough cockpit to hit.

The Medium Lasers are for emergencies - an Atlas suddenly cresting over a hill, for example. In that case, I fire all of my weapons in the direction of the cockpit. If I hit the cockpit, the fight's over. If I miss the cockpit, I hit the center torso instead, which is what I want to do 90% of the time.

The lasers also make a good weapon for killing lights and as a way of continuing the fight after all ammo is gone/both arms are destroyed.

I've found that quad ac/2s just don't do enough of anything to be worth running. Quad AC/5s are good, especially at range. Tri UAC/5s aren't as good as the quad AC/5s. Dual AC/20s are awesome no matter how you support them.

3.) The Armor/ammo distribution
There's very little armor on the legs, because nobody legs heavies. 67% of the ammo being in the legs is for the same reason. The rest is in the cockpit, because that gets used first and quite quickly, and in the center torso, because if they core your center torso you're going to die anyway.

Most of the armor is concentrated on the front. I've played around with protecting my back more and honestly it just isn't worth it. I found myself dying too often in fights I would've otherwise won.

4.) Why not a JM6-A or JM6-DD

The DD has superfluous ballistics hardpoints. I've never seen anybody make use of any more than 4 hardpoints and still have a viable build.

The JM6-A is interesting, but one cannot use both AC/20s and the missile hardpoints. It's outclassed by the Catapult in most usages.

5.) General strategy

This is not a brawler. This is not a scout 'Mech. This is absolutely not a sniper. It's not a dragon, or a catapult, or a cataphract. This is it's own breed of strange. This is the support gank.

What does that mean? That means not charging into a fight with your bros. This means letting your team lead the way into a fight, and then once the fight as started, using your good mobility and high burst damage to do terrible, terrible things to people.

Look at fights in progress. If you see an assault with a weakened torso/arm, explode it. The burst damage here is high enough that you can generally take away most of an assault's weapons if you time your shot properly.

Look for anything that's an easy shot. I love finding catapult snipers because I can generally get within 700m and cockpit them out of existence. I find Ravens, Hunchbacks, Catapults, Cataphracts, and Atlases to have really easy cockpits to hit.

If you see someone isolated from their group, attack them. This 'Mech wins 1v1 with almost everything. Assault 'Mechs are tricky, but if a key component of theirs has taken a modest amount of damage, the Jager will win almost every time. Stalkers are hardest, because they're impossible to cockpit. Atlases are easiest for the reverse reason.

When in an emergency, first determine whether or not you can shoot your way out. If yes, fire everything at whatever is about to kill you. If no, run. 70 kph before speed tweak means you can usually **** in an emergency.

DO NOT EXPOSE YOURSELF. You NEVER want to be the focus of their fire. The XL engine makes you extremely fragile. You are a VERY easy kill when you're the only target for multiple enemies, especially at long range.

6.) Why should you use a JM6-S?

Damage. I average between 450 and 700 damage per game, and 2-5 kills as well. I may die in a fair amount of my games, but it's very rare for me to do less than 400 damage to my enemies before I die. I typically do damage on par with the Assaults on my teams.

7.) Why shouldn't you use a JM6-S?

If you like range versatility, durability, or the ability to brawl...look elsewhere. This is not that 'Mech. This is a very, very specialized build that plays to the most compelling reasons to playing a Jager.

Any critique of the build is welcome, as are questions.

Edited by Brynjolf Heimskarr, 24 April 2013 - 05:02 PM.


#2 Flak Kannon

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

Well said.

Dual Gauss is fun from time to time in any of the Jagers...

And don't hesitate going Dual UAC5's, 2 ML's and 2 SSRM's on the A Model Jager. That's a fun build. Not the massive burst damage, but you can sit back 600-700 meters and pepper them with UAC5's, and have amazing heat management.. so ML can fire in chainfire for a long, long time..

But your right, the Dual AC20 is the current Meta Game Jager champ. If you have speed tweak, then a STD 225 is a much more survivable option, and your really not much slower than and XL280 without speed tweak..

If your running dual AC20's speed isn't, and shouldn't be your strongest assest on the battlefield.. your AC20's are, keep them in the fight longer with STD engines is the way to go in my opinion.

Edited by Flak Kannon, 24 April 2013 - 04:26 PM.


#3 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

I like the build! Here's what I'm running:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a9cf37ba0fbfd0

I'm a huge fan of going fast in this thing - being able to move and turn quickly does wonders for your survival time. I've found that since the AC/20 has 8 extra HP, you can save up some weight by taking armor off the arms. I've tried other Jager setups and out of what I've tried so far (Gauss, UAC5) AC/20 is by far my favorite. Massive pinpoint alpha damage that you can comfortably run with an XL 300 is just too good to pass up.

#4 deff lizzard

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:48 PM

I liked the speed I had with the XL 300, but if your secondary system is going to be small lasers...I'd rather take an extra ton of AC/20 ammo along tbh. I think 3x ML in the torso has won me over the extra 8 kph in speed because I'm getting kills I otherwise wouldn't get - not enough burst DPS in close quarters, or situations where I'm out of ammo...etc.

On the XL vs STD front...what you have to weigh is the opportunity cost of dropping to a slower engine. The problem is this: How much extra damage will I not be able to dish out because I can't get into range/maneuver to secondary fights/get a better firing position vs how much extra damage I can do because of enhanced staying power?

Most good pilots will tend towards taking out the center torso of a jagermech. Not all of us run XL engines, and taking out a torso still leaves at least one AC/20 functional, and I just came off a game where I did 580 damage with a my 3 MLs and my left AC/20. I've found in general the enhanced speed to be more of an asset than a liability.

Survivability is not a concern - you're using a jager! Your only concern should be 'how much damage and how many people can I kill before I inevitably die?' And the more people you kill, the less there is to kill you right back :(

Also I highly endorse the cockpit as a location for ammo. All 'mechs draw from it first, for one, and for two, if you're in a situation where a cook-off in your cockpit could occur, you're dead already.

#5 BoPop

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:49 PM

View PostFlak Kannon, on 24 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

If your running dual AC20's speed isn't, and shouldn't be your strongest assest on the battlefield.. your AC20's are, keep them in the fight longer with STD engines is the way to go in my opinion.


agreed.

xl engines make me shudder, especially in a jager.

dual ac20's is just sick! go for the cheese and drop two of those lasers hehe

#6 Howdy Doody

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:55 AM

Howdy,

I f'n love the Jag. I've tried a ton of setups and this is currently how I'm playing my favorite!

It is eliete:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...25f51fd443b9fdf

I loved your term "support gank". This version I run is as a "support focus fire disrupter" . I use my speed (86 kph) to keep moving constantly and my ONLY goal is to hit targets and force them to take cover/flee/scramble. The 4 AC/2s makes more mechs run/cover then any of my other versions while still dishing out fantastic damage. Since switching to this I have averaged ~400-600+ damage, but with only a kill sprinkled in now and then. But my main goal isn't to score kills. I stay in back moving around constantly changing targets. When one target goes to hide/flee/etc after being thumped I'll switch to another, then another. I try to keep them from being organized. From what I have seen in pugs thus far, the team that focus fires the best, seems to win (all mechs tonnage being somewhat equal)

I have 3 ways I shoot the AC's.
1. AlphaStrike: Use this to aim for parts, sniping, and generally when trying to do the most efficient damage.
2. Dakka, Dakka: I use this on charging mechs by trying to earthquake their cockpit and make it hard to take good shots. Or on light mechs when I want it to look like a movie with tons of bullets spraying all around them. :)
3. Chain Fire: One at a time chain fire when heat is bad, but still trying to mess things up.

With 675 rounds and my speed I still live long enough to run out of ammo some matches. But by then the match is normally already decided.

I did try throwing in some med lasers but decided I preferred the extra ammo.
1 ton ammo = 75 shots x 2 damage = 150 damage
150 damage / 5 (med laser) = 30 laser shots
So I would need to land 30 med laser shots to equal the rounds in one ton. I also found I couldn't use med lasers and quad AC/2s together effectively due to heat.

The other thing I love about this build is it works on pretty much any map. So until there comes a time where you choose the mech for a map, this build give me tons of great options for all occasions.

The beauty of the Jag is crazy different ways to play it. Currently I'm loving this build. Thank you so much for starting this thread. Great read and I'm going to try some ideas here.

Doody

P.S. This is also the only Jag build I have used that had 6 PPC stalkers screaming nerf. Dakka, Dakka beyoches!

Edited by Howdy Doody, 25 April 2013 - 09:02 AM.


#7 Spheroid

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

Didn't you save your 260XL from the Jager-DD? You can go max armor with that engine on a dual gauss build. I agree though the 280 seems quite good.

#8 Shuyen

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:33 AM

A gank?? Love it! :)

I have a JM6-A version that I've been running for awhile that uses a LBX-10 as the main shotgun and a variety of other things as a kitchen sink to throw at anything that comes within 250m. Theres 3 SSRM2's, a MPL, a MG, and, let's see here, oh! A SRM-6 with artemis. I was running an LRM-10 (hence the Artemis) to have something to do with myself until, as you so well put it, the brawlers were fully engaged and I could wade in with the shotgun and the kitchen sink.

I've also got a TAG (just to see how well it worked) and an AMS. I've run without both before in order to get an extra ML and HS in there. For this very moment I am keeping them around. I figure I am in close and pointing straight at the enemy mech anyways, so I might as well light them up for everyone else! If it lets my team kill that mech before it kills me, I'm allll about it. :D

I've also run a AC/10 instead of the LBX with mixed results. I really like the LBX when dealing with pesky lights and faster mediums. At least I know I am going to hit them, even if it's a partial, the little b*stards!

It's got ferro, endo and DHS but no XL engine. Those engines are too much dinero for me!

My JM6-S build has a Gauss & AC/2 combo with 3 ML's for in close work. I love the range that thing has! It feels like I can reach darn near across any map and smack someone. Which, with the Gauss, I can. I liken the combo to a jab-jab-jab-UPPERCUT-jab-jab-jab-UPPERCUT!

Edited by Shuyen, 25 April 2013 - 10:46 AM.


#9 151st Light Horse Regiment

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:38 AM

I've also tried this mech over the last few days.

I know everyone loves it but im inclined to disagree with the dual ac20's. Im running it now though, but the fire rate is too slow, you need to be deadly accurate, and i find the weak armor means guns/ammo get destroyed pretty easily. It just doesnt feel flexible enough.

Iirc, the original Jager was an AA gun. I find putting 2x ac20 takes it from being a rapid fire AA pew pew monster into a slow, laboring artillery piece.

I tried a shotgun build (lb10x) but it didnt work out too well at anything other than point blank range.

1x ac5, 3x ac2 is the best build i find.

#10 Kajiya

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:39 AM

I just bought a Jeager yesterday and its fun, i tried different weapons and finally build the mech with 2x Ac2 and 2xAc5.
The only problem here is iam short on ammo and every hit counts. But my first game ive done 600damage 7 assists and 1 kill.

#11 151st Light Horse Regiment

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:28 PM

How much ammo are you packing for 2 ac20's and 3 lasers? It must only be about 20 shells?

#12 deff lizzard

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

42 rounds. It's 6 tons of ammunition. The tonnage breakdown is as follows, for my build:

2x AC/20: 28 tons
3x Medium Laser: 3 tons
42 rounds AC/20 ammunition: 6 tons
XL 280 Engine: 14 tons
336 points armor: 10.5 tons
Endosteel structure: 3.5 tons

Total tonnage: 65 tons.

It's all there in the link ;)

#13 Blue Splint

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:46 AM

Agree with everything except all your cockpit talk. Seriously, it's easy to cockpit an atlas? That tiny left eye there? And a raven, zipping around, you're going to lead-shot it with ac20's and hit its cockpit? Sounds like you're being given lots of free time to aim at stationary/near-stationary targets, lucky you.

#14 deff lizzard

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:00 PM

Most of my cockpit shots on lights come when they're zipping around other people. I hit them when they're coming towards me - they're effectively stationary vs. my guns.

For things like Atlas', I weigh the odds, and if they seem good enough, I'll charge 'em against a wall and then cockpit from 10m away. It doesn't take skill. Just balls of steel and a little luck that your opponent panics.

So, yeah, I guess I'm lucky. But I make my own luck. I put myself in situations where I can get lucky for little risk, and when I do, the payoff is huge. On games where I don't get so lucky, I'm still inflicting 450+ damage. On games where I do get lucky, I wind up killing 5-6 people and doing in excess of 700.

Edited by Brynjolf Heimskarr, 27 April 2013 - 12:50 PM.


#15 151st Light Horse Regiment

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostBrynjolf Heimskarr, on 26 April 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

42 rounds. It's 6 tons of ammunition. The tonnage breakdown is as follows, for my build:

2x AC/20: 28 tons
3x Medium Laser: 3 tons
42 rounds AC/20 ammunition: 6 tons
XL 280 Engine: 14 tons
336 points armor: 10.5 tons
Endosteel structure: 3.5 tons

Total tonnage: 65 tons.

It's all there in the link :D


Haha thanks, i can never make sense of smurfys links :)

#16 Regrets

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:51 PM

I think your build is pretty good. I run a 300 or drop down to a std 2 ML and go just 2ac20 + 5 tons ammo. Honestly this thing is fragile in close (easily loses an ac or worse and is crippled).

It is not a very good mech once you lose a side. Thankfully most pilots are shooting at legs, I def go for those myself with the ACs, just shoot that guy with SRMs in the foot. :o Works every time. It's rare I run out of ammo with 5 tons, and way more often I find myself with one arm or dead I guess is my point.

ML are nice in this respect, cause maybe you just lost an AC and have both torsos, worst case 1 ML + AC20 is way better than just the cannon. If you have the XL you are not gonna make it long. Maybe the 225 std is worth it for me to stop me from zerging. It is certainly more durable either way... :P

And actually I don't mind running max armor on the arms and about the same points as the arms on the legs.

Edited by Regrets, 27 April 2013 - 10:51 PM.


#17 Fitzbattleaxe

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:20 PM

Well personally, I'm a fan of the 2UAC5, 4ML build. You can get a sustained dps of around 13.5, and you're making everyone's game just a little bit more interesting by not being yet another AC20 build.

#18 deff lizzard

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:49 PM

How are you getting that much efficiency? The max I've been able to get with 2 UAC5 and 4 MLs was 6.06 @ 43% cooling efficiency via smurfy. Max DPS is in the 14 range, and granted you'd be hitting at that max most of the time you're fighting, but...13.5 sustained DPS seems a lot high.

#19 Fitzbattleaxe

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 11:01 PM

View PostBrynjolf Heimskarr, on 28 April 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

How are you getting that much efficiency? The max I've been able to get with 2 UAC5 and 4 MLs was 6.06 @ 43% cooling efficiency via smurfy. Max DPS is in the 14 range, and granted you'd be hitting at that max most of the time you're fighting, but...13.5 sustained DPS seems a lot high.


Well I'll admit, that number is a bit of a cheat. I do my numbers over a 30 second engagement period, so you have a buffer in the form of your heat capacity, and then usually something will happen that allows you to reset - you go around a hill, or a building or something. That said, the numbers on smurfy for dps are complete nonsense; adding weapons to your loadout can decrease the number, which obviously makes no sense as you can just choose not to fire that weapon. If you only fire the UAC5s and one of the MLs, you should still get 10.35 dps for as long as you want. (Well, in theory at least, just based on weapon and heat sink specs - on the hotter maps, your dissipation rate my not be able to keep up).

edit: As a point of comparison, your AC20 build will do around 11.6 over 30 seconds, but max indefinite is closer to 7.9.

edit 2: realized I mistyped the number of heatsinks on my UAC5 build into my dps script. 30 second sustained is actually 12.75, and indefinite is 10.19

Edited by Fitzbattleaxe, 28 April 2013 - 11:25 PM.


#20 CygnusX7

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:40 AM

2x Gauss, 7 tons of ammo, XL260.
Evil build when kept out of bad situations.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da9ec9f768d5d99

Edited by CygnusX7, 29 April 2013 - 05:42 AM.






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