57 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

topgun505, on 25 April 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

I'm not arguing that ANY design has to be heat neutral. Just that the drawback for ENERGY weapons is their heat generation and that currently the heat shutdown threshold is set too high to really be the drawback it was meant to be in order to effectively prevent energy boats.

If this is the case. We're cool. Pun intended.

[Roadbuster]

Lots of good points you guys bring up.
It would be really great if we had a test server to test if such changes would improve the gameplay or not. Just to play around with values.

MaddMaxx, on 25 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Actually MWO does punish the "Overrider". It is the Jumper-Alpha-Shutdowner that is not punished. Perhaps the damage done to the Mech should be extended to the straight up Shut-Down. If you Alpha and shutdown, damage is done to the Mech, maybe not at the same level as the over-ride, but close. The game could easily calculate a Heat Spike to Shut-Down damage profile same as the Over-ride on does. Thus, Alpha and Shutdown to your hearts content, you may have your cover but you will still have to pay the piper, so to speak.

How about this. The jumpers who overheat and shutdown while in the air, fall down and get knocked down when they hit the ground, taking damage and requiring the additional time to stand up after their mech starts up again, before they can continue fighting.

Edited by Roadbuster, 25 April 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[Roadbuster]

shameless bump

[Teralitha]

Just... remove double heat sinks, problem solved. No need for all this complexity when the solution is just that simple.

[Rattlehead NZ]

Teralitha, on 29 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

Just... remove double heat sinks, problem solved. No need for all this complexity when the solution is just that simple.

I've been playing since May last year with the early beta testers. Back when there was 4 mechs and forest and that was it. SHS is all we had and guess what became the op kit of the time.....gaussapults. Every K2 would have them and they could deal more dps than any energy kit because they didn't suffer heat problems. Removing DHS would just bring us full circle and create a new most powerful alpha kit. So no it isn't that simple unless your a gaussapult fanboy wanting the old days back.

The idea around threshold being reduced or removed is on the right track. Most weapons are well balanced in their firerates and damages, its just the obvious problems with mass high heat alphas that are overtaking the battlefields as the threshold is too high enabling 6x ppc kits being viable. Heaving forbid we have to put thought into our kits so we have high heat long range weapons and a multitude of small weapons that wont overheat us when brawling.

Also SHS wont solve problems any alpha kits running standard engines would just change to an XL engine and use that to up the threshold again.

As for the Jumping Alpha kits. Just add a negative to heat dissipation that increases the higher you go over 100%. And if you stay in shutdown for too long and cannot cool down in time .... boom!

Edit: Or heatsink damage after a certain time of being too hot or too many shutdowns.

Edited by Rattlehead NZ, 29 April 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[MasterErrant]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 April 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Heck since we have to fire twice to do the same amount of damage as was done on TT threshold should be doubled! I normally agree with you Road, but I design my Mechs to be able to fire as much as possible. making the heat threshold worse would cripple those of use who build a true Alpha build (A Mech that is designed to actually fire all its guns safely). I don't see anything wrong with folks packing their build to shutdown heat levels. They are taking the risk associated with that level of power, Let em.

Heck since we have to fire twice to do the same amount of damage as was done on TT threshold should be doubled! I normally agree with you Road, but I design my Mechs to be able to fire as much as possible. making the heat threshold worse would cripple those of use who build a true Alpha build (A Mech that is designed to actually fire all its guns safely). I don't see anything wrong with folks packing their build to shutdown heat levels. They are taking the risk associated with that level of power, Let em.

yeat that's true be we are also fireing three to twenty (depending on the weapon) times faster than in TT as well.

[General Taskeen]

I'm pretty sure every Mech game ever has had heat thresholds. MWO is the exception, for some reason. Most of those games had varying degree of imbalance simply due to less hardpoint restrictions or some weapon imbalance. MWO already has restrictive hard points, combine that with re-developed heat (with fixed heat thresholds, meaning all mechs get the same heat threshold) and better balanced SHS/DHS and MWO can better.

Then after that its just a matter of balancing weapons and equipment.

[MustrumRidcully]

Are we there yet?

[Dishevel]

I got killed by 2xAC/20s, 6xSRM6s, 4xERPPCs, 6xPPC Stalker, LRM Boat, Cheating Macro Using 4xAC2s.
Nerf IT!

Can we stop? Please. Tactics, and a little humility and all will be well.
When you find yourself getting killed too often by something ask only "What can I change?"
Empower yourself. You will get better as well.
Excuses will not help you. Only responsibility.

[Roadbuster]

Dishevel, on 08 May 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I got killed by 2xAC/20s, 6xSRM6s, 4xERPPCs, 6xPPC Stalker, LRM Boat, Cheating Macro Using 4xAC2s.
Nerf IT!

Can we stop? Please. Tactics, and a little humility and all will be well.
When you find yourself getting killed too often by something ask only "What can I change?"
Empower yourself. You will get better as well.
Excuses will not help you. Only responsibility.

That's a good advice and all, but there is not much you can do if you peek around a corner and suddenly miss your side torso, or if a dual AC20 mech or SRM6 boat comes running straight at you like a kamikaze pilot and presses his button 1-2 times to kill you.
There is only so much you can do with scouting and tactics. If you can't bring down a attacking mech with a balanced loadout while he just requires 1-2 salvos to kill you, something is not right.
Of course lowering/fixing heat threshold would have more effect on energy boats than ballistic/missile boats.

I'm not whining about getting killed by other players, but the 1-2 hit kills we have now, are hurting the game gecause balanced builds are not competitive.
And if balanced builds are not viable too, we will end up with a game where all players use the same loadouts and mechs. => booooring, next game plz

Would it really hurt so much to have to hit the same part of a mech 2-3 times to destroy it instead of 1 time?

[Dishevel]

Roadbuster, on 10 May 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

That's a good advice and all, but there is not much you can do if you peek around a corner and suddenly miss your side torso, or if a dual AC20 mech or SRM6 boat comes running straight at you like a kamikaze pilot and presses his button 1-2 times to kill you.
There is only so much you can do with scouting and tactics. If you can't bring down a attacking mech with a balanced loadout while he just requires 1-2 salvos to kill you, something is not right.
Of course lowering/fixing heat threshold would have more effect on energy boats than ballistic/missile boats.

I'm not whining about getting killed by other players, but the 1-2 hit kills we have now, are hurting the game gecause balanced builds are not competitive.
And if balanced builds are not viable too, we will end up with a game where all players use the same loadouts and mechs. => booooring, next game plz

Would it really hurt so much to have to hit the same part of a mech 2-3 times to destroy it instead of 1 time?

2 to 3 times?
Sometime I run a 2xAC/20 2xML Jagger.
Almost nothing big dies in 2 shots.
It is 3 in the heat of battle or 1.
Full Alpha to the Head is really fun if you can pull it off.

[WolvesX]

Roadbuster, on 25 April 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

op

Nice idea for the test servers!

[General Taskeen]

Regardless if "heat penalities" are added like slowing down or ammo exploding, Mech titles like MW:LL already did well by balancing with a fixed heat threshold. MW:LL doesn't have in depth heat penalties, but the fixed heat threshold is spot on and perfectly balanced. In fact, every Mech game had fixed thresholds that I can think of.

The threshold in MW:LL basically matches TT standards. If you fire 3 PPC's at once your heat jumps nearly all the way into critical, firing 4 at once puts you into the red zone for auto-shutdown. That's how it is in TT, since they are one of the hotter weapons next to ER PPC's or Heavy Lasers. Heat dissipation is also increased for SHS and DHS in that game, to make each viable for stock-like designs they included in the game.

The main penalties that apply when over riding in the "red zone" go in this order in MW:LL -> Heat Sinks Degrade and become destroyed -> Keep doing it and Mech Armor is destroyed next (it melts away basically) -> Weapons are destroyed -> Boom!

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 May 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Are we there yet?

[trollocaustic]

Against.
Strongly Against.

Energy doesn't need more nerfs, and heat works different in TT, where heat is deducted from dissipation before added up to the bar.

[Renthrak]

I'm not sure that any single change can alleviate the problem. After some research, I've come up with some ideas:

http://mwomercs.com/...ce-first-draft/

[trollocaustic]

Here's what really gets interesting.
a DHS has only 70% it's actual capability compared to tabletop, yet it has to go 100% further. The threshold boost is what makes it workable.

On the other hand, ammodumpers get up to 50% more ammo. While it's not a straight equal number, accuracy is better in MWO than in TT. Overall, ammodumping to do damage is better than using energy and having to manage heat.

[MustrumRidcully]

trollocaustic, on 19 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Here's what really gets interesting.
a DHS has only 70% it's actual capability compared to tabletop, yet it has to go 100% further. The threshold boost is what makes it workable.

On the other hand, ammodumpers get up to 50% more ammo. While it's not a straight equal number, accuracy is better in MWO than in TT. Overall, ammodumping to do damage is better than using energy and having to manage heat.

Due to higher precision (mouse aiming + convergence instead of a single dice roll), energy weapons also need less shots to kill a target.

But you're not wrong, the high heat capacity hides a lot of the energy imbalances. While greating its own. Try to get a 40 damage alpha at 540m with ballistics. Energy weapons do it in 28 tons, ballistics in 36 tons. If you have the range to snipe, heat and sustained DPS becomes less a concern and it's more important to deliver precise alphas, spending the rest of the time in cover, cooling off and/or re-manoeuvring sot he enemy can't predict your next shot.