11 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

While Hit State Rewind on the surface appears to be a great innovation for the game and has markedly improved my ability to hit light and medium 'mechs in close range fights without worrying about lag, I'm noticing a few major negative aspects to it, and that's why I'm posting to see if others share my experience.

Problem 1: Hitting many targets graphically at sniper ranges, but they don't take damage

Around 700-900m, I often will land a shot directly on a 'mech and see an explosion, but the shot won't register. This is open-field stuff, I'm talking about, with no chance of a desync over cover. This almost never happened prior to HSR, and it does not seem to be concerned with speed - often I will nail stationary or slow moving heavies and assaults dead on to no impact.

While I had perhaps more trouble hitting fast targets at these ranges before with Laser/Ballistic, I never had this "whiffed attack" thing happen before HSR.

EDIT: The "red marker" does not even appear despite the graphical impact against the 'mech; meaning my client saw it hit, but it did not hit anyway due to being out of sync, something HSR feels like it is currently making worse.

Problem 2: Locational damage is no longer defensible.

The other huge problem I'm having with Hit State Rewind is that it has created a whole new "lag game" for me - the evasion one.

If they shoot at me after I've turned my torso away, presenting the enemy my pristine rear armor, on my screen, I will still often take damage to the spot that was previously facing my attacker. As such, firing a quick shot then spinning away to try to weather the blow is a crap shoot now; I cannot count the times I've died to being shot in the back, but show no rear damage (instead taking damage to my front arc).

For the good pilots that are skilled in being able to spread damage over their body, this is horrendous. It was such a major tactic, I would honestly rather deal with lag shooting at lights than having no control over where incoming shots land.

..

Again, HSR has improved, vastly, my ability to hit lights and mediums in brawls or heavy activity areas in particular. It's not without merit. But these two issues have been coming up again and again for me and I'm wondering if anyone else is sharing the experience.

Overall, if HSR can't be fixed for these, I'd rather it be abandon entirely than pushed forwards. With locational damage and such so important to MechWarrior in general, essentially randomizing it is a really bad idea, esp. when it can go between arcs.

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 April 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[DubBucket]

Obviously, hits on other targets seem to connect more often now, but it's also frustrating to be speeding around in a light mech, and get murdered after you've rounded a corner. I like to jump-scout in my Spider, and sometimes I'll land out of view, and get a few steps in, before I explode to 6 simultaneous PPC hits. What can you do though? You can't have it both ways.

[Inyc]

I generally play with a ping in the 30s... Hit state rewind hasn't changed anything for me other than making me die faster because high ping people can hit me easier

[subgenius]

Mine is almost always pegged around 300, and before the ballistics fix it was a total waste of time mounting anything but lasers. The only time you could reliably hit anything with a PPC was if you and your target had nearly 0 relative lateral motion. And even then, you'd get .5-3 seconds of semi-random firing delay.

Last night? I shot a jumping spider out of the sky with a PPC. Working as intended

[Victor Morson]

Inyc, on 25 April 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I generally play with a ping in the 30s... Hit state rewind hasn't changed anything for me other than making me die faster because high ping people can hit me easier

The problem that we've been seeing now is when an attack is coming in, it won't hit the area you actually have facing them. It's resulting in a lot of quick turns with shots ending up in a totally different place than they connect.

I am surprised so many people are having an easier time sniping, though. Ever since HSR I'd say about 1/10 shots "whiffs" where before against slow movers it was closer to 1/30.

It definitely improved hit detection in melee brawls though, that I can't argue.

[Kaspirikay]

280 ping here. HSR has really changed the game for the better for me.

[Tennex]

i thought they had fixed this with the latest rubberbadnding fix. but im still getting the issues. maybe less? havent played enough to say

[MuKen]

Yes, there are still many cases of a visual hit that doesnt register damage. I thought it's been accepted for over a decade now that client-side hit detection is the way to go, why are there still games that resist that?

[aniviron]

I've been running a stock (ish) 8Q awesome since closed beta. PPC hit registry has always been pretty iffy, but I feel that it is much worse since HSR. I play with a 50 ping, and while I feel that PPCs have become much more responsive after HSR, I have been getting duds more than ever. It is pretty frustrating to hit three volleys of three on a stationary target and get no hits, even though all three appear as hits on my screen. I'd rather hoped that HSR for PPCs/ballistics (I get this problem with gauss as well, but not as often) would fix this, as the whole point of HSR is to match what you see with what you get instead of guessing on leading targets.

And OP, you can't have it both ways. Proper HSR means that you will get hit in the front after twisting, as the whole point is to give the shooter priority and if he sees your front armor when he shoots, it doesn't matter if you've already twisted on your end. You either have to accept that you will get hit after going around walls/twisting, or you have to be okay with your shots not hitting where they should. One or the other, but not both.

[subgenius]

MuKen, on 25 April 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Yes, there are still many cases of a visual hit that doesnt register damage. I thought it's been accepted for over a decade now that client-side hit detection is the way to go, why are there still games that resist that?

Because it is easily hacked? The whole point of server side authentication and hit detection was to remove the possibility of pretty much anything but aimbots being involved in the equation.

[Victor Morson]

MuKen, on 25 April 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Yes, there are still many cases of a visual hit that doesnt register damage. I thought it's been accepted for over a decade now that client-side hit detection is the way to go, why are there still games that resist that?

Because client-side detection is really, really bad for two reasons:

1- Cheating. It is incredibly simple to cheat a client-based shooting system, and almost impossible to prevent anyone from doing so.

2- Remember playing early Counter-Strike? "I made it to cover and 2 seconds later I died! BULL!" That's because without a mediator, it relies on the shooter's view of what is happening. If he's lagged out a half second, he'll still have a half second window on you when you go to evade.

That said, I did not have nearly as many "visual hits that don't register" on slow 'mechs before this issue. I almost wonder if HSR works poorly at lower speeds?

[MuKen]

Victor Morson, on 25 April 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Because client-side detection is really, really bad for two reasons:

1- Cheating. It is incredibly simple to cheat a client-based shooting system, and almost impossible to prevent anyone from doing so.

There's going to be hacking either way. Whether it's a map-hack or an aim-bot in this game, or a free-hit in a client-side game, a cheater will ruin any game he's in. Is it worth making poor hit detection in 100% of games, so that the cheaters in .1% of games are less cheat-ey? Those few games with cheaters are ruined either way.

Halo, COD, and counterstrike, all of which had a much bigger "pro gamer" scene than this game, use client-side hit detection. Because in a serious match, it is more important that you be able to aim, than to make cheaters less effective, because either way the cheaters are going to ruin any game they are in.

Quote

2- Remember playing early Counter-Strike? "I made it to cover and 2 seconds later I died! BULL!" That's because without a mediator, it relies on the shooter's view of what is happening. If he's lagged out a half second, he'll still have a half second window on you when you go to evade.

That's exactly the same thing HSR does, try to rely on the shooter's view of what happened. When it works perfectly, you will get this same issue of being hit behind cover, because it basically IS simulating client-side hit detection. The fact that it doesn't always work as well as it tries to is not a benefit of HSR or a deficit of client-side hit detection.