Jump to content

Capwarrior Online - Improving A Mediocre System


7 replies to this topic

#1 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:36 PM

There is no perfect system... Assault has its flaws and so does Conquest. They are "basically" playable, but have their own problems based on the situation and map. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, I will try to list many suggestions that I have read and ones that I have thought about... and hopefully that we come to some conclusion on what some of the best ideas are (yes, maybe a poll in the future, not now).

This is not a thread on "remove capping on Assault" or "block capping for X time on Assault". Those are simply unacceptable answers as there has been no proper rebuttals with them (with a faulty premise to boot). I wish to refine the system, not play straight TD... we do that 80+% of the time according to PGI. I hope to make it 90-95+% of the time, instead of the fail base scouting, fail base capping, or fail map distance traveling (Alpine) that plagues the modes themselves.

Feel free to add ideas, but PLEASE HAVE A CIVIL DISCUSSION ABOUT IT and do not be angry if your idea is countered with legitimate points. That's what a discussion is all about.

1) Have a cap speed modifier per map - The simple premise here is that the speed of capping should be directly related to the traveling distance that is required from reaching one point (starting location) to another point (base cap). For Alpine, the base capping should be slower, that it would for River City as the distance to get back to base from "the middle" (usually Epsilon on Conquest) is fairly significant, even for fast mechs. Actual numbers would need to be tested out, but that is how it should function. There shouldn't be any reason to counter this logic...

The only difference in this behavior is for Conquest... where it should be "easier" to cap the points. Why hold those capping points longer than they need to? This should be directly related to the cap speed modifier.

2) Cap speed modification altered by time - The simple premise here is that depending on the current time consumed in a match, the cap speed increases the longer you spend in a match.

My current proposal is this (it can be changed, so #s are not finalized, just an idea):
For the first 600 seconds of a match, cap speed is X/600 where X is the current time spent in the current match. The earlier you cap, the less effective you are at capping. So, it will take approximately 5 minutes to reach 50% of normal cap speed. This primarily should address matches where two teams totally miss each other on the battlefield (it happens in River City and other maps) and one team decides to cap. The other team should be able to respond to this due to the cap speed modification, so matches don't always end on a cap win in the first 5 mins of the match. It isn't perfect, but as I said, the #s could be adjusted.

Closing off the capping makes little sense... I have no issue with people trying to do a cap distraction, which is a legitimate tactic. However, closing off capping essentially removes such a tactic altogether. What I'm suggestion is simply to reduce the effectiveness of capping earlier, so it is to one's discretion at the current moment to cap distract or backrage some other mech who isn't paying attention.

Suggestion #2 is specifically for Assault.

3) Cap speed modification altered by top speed - The premise here is that fast mechs will get to a point quicker, therefore their capping speed should be reduced in proportion to their speed. For instance, if a Raven-3L has its max engine (295XL), it should cap SLOWER than its Raven-2X brethren (245XL max). When the Raven-2X gets there, it should cap FASTER than a 3L, but the 3L will be overall better because the time that it would take the 2X to finish capping a point, the 3L would be on its way to another capping point. Remember that the 3L should GET THERE FASTER, but not CAP AS FAST.

This idea isn't strictly for Conquest, as it could be applied to Assault. Remember that top speed ALREADY calculates TONNAGE and ENGINE RATING, and the only difference then between a bigger and small mech running at the same speed is ACCELERATION, which smaller mechs should have an advantage here. This also helps newbies as newbies tend to run slower engines and this idea should not penalize them too much.

Also, I know people will say "why can't I just a exploit the system by using a really slow mech/engine and cap?" Although this has less relevance to non-light mechs, but putting a slow engine on any mech makes you significantly more vulnerable and although you may have the firepower and armor, I've seen really really bad pilots try to base cap with the slowest Atlas imaginable... and they easily die because they move like they had rocks in their pants.

I'm sure there are other ideas, perhaps better than mine, but please feel free to comment on these ideas, as I believe these are solid foundations for improving a flawed system.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 April 2013 - 04:39 PM.


#2 Syrkres

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 488 posts

Posted 29 April 2013 - 06:07 AM

I am in agreement with #1 and #2 but have to disagree with #3.

Reason being is do you take the speed at the beginning or at the end? for example if you have a fast mech at the start but it gets killed then your speed is skewed. But if you enter with slow mechs (all assaults) where as the other team has more lights then your team is also skewed because you likely have more fire power, so now you get an advantage because you wandered too far away from your base?

That is tactics...

#3 Calx

    Member

  • Pip
  • The Terror
  • The Terror
  • 19 posts

Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:25 AM

Most of the issues with capping in assault come from how hollow and lame it feels when a group of lights skirt around the engaging mechs, occasionally before a shot is ever fired, and cap the enemy base at extremely minimal gains in terms of c-bills and xp (which admittedly some people don't care about, but new players do). Arguements come in about solving this by playing smart or keeping people on defense etc, but however you justify it, losses like that are anti-fun.

My opinions suck, but the direction I would go with these problems is as follows. Increase the number of mechs on the field from 8 per team to 12-14. Reduce assault capping speed across the board, or adjust cap speeds depending on map size, terrain complexity, or the direct distance between capture points, something, anything. Lastly, after making it harder to execute, dramatically increase the profitability of a cap victory. If you make it extremely desirable to win via capture, then that's where the fights are going to be rooted or organized towards. It shouldn't have to feel like you got cheated out of an actual fight when the enemy team caps on you, or a couple of your guys cap on them and the game just terminates.

#4 Mal

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 995 posts

Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

19% of Assault matches end via cap.... hardly enough to warrant more 'capwarrior online' QQ...

#5 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:31 PM

View PostMal, on 29 April 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:


19% of Assault matches end via cap.... hardly enough to warrant more 'capwarrior online' QQ...


The sad point is that they still QQ despite it. Then again, we have no "context" of the current meta date range for that assessment.


View PostSyrkres, on 29 April 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

I am in agreement with #1 and #2 but have to disagree with #3.

Reason being is do you take the speed at the beginning or at the end? for example if you have a fast mech at the start but it gets killed then your speed is skewed. But if you enter with slow mechs (all assaults) where as the other team has more lights then your team is also skewed because you likely have more fire power, so now you get an advantage because you wandered too far away from your base?

That is tactics...


That suggestion is more for Conquest than anything else... where capping is easier to do when you are faster.

#6 Ningyo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 496 posts

Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:32 AM

Necroing this since I think it is the best thought out of the first 10 or so threads I could find on this.

Ok first I like your methods #1, it has few to no drawbacks.

Suggestion #2 however makes capping to force enemy group to split tactics non-viable since they can safely ignore you.

Suggestion #3 I am not a fan of, for one many many people will find it unfair. And it makes little sense logically. the best logical argument would be you have a better computer in a heavier mech, but that would be mostly tonnage based, and its probably not that accurate anyway unless you have a command unit or something like the atlas.


Ok now my suggestion is as far as I can tell right now capping speed is additive. 2 mechs is twice as fast as 1, 3 is three times as fast, 6 is 6 times as fast. I would suggest changing this to an exponentially reductive increase. Second mech increase speed by half of first (1.5 total), Third by half the speed of second (1.75 total), 4th by half of third (1.875 total) etc.

This would both give a reason to have more than one person capturing the base, and allow the enemy time to respond. It would also give incentive if say 4 people go rush and capture to add some tactics over standing there. It would be profitable for 1-2 of them to go screen and delay enemies rather than just sit there.

Personally I think your method 1 (cap speed dependent on map/map size) and this combined would be the proper solution.

#7 Spawnsalot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 352 posts

Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:06 AM

View PostMal, on 29 April 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

19% of Assault matches end via cap.... hardly enough to warrant more 'capwarrior online' QQ...


Question is: when was that metric recorded from? From the beginning of closed beta? Open beta? When everyone was fresh-faced and getting their fill of glorious mech destruction before the monotony set in?

What about a slightly different mode based on assault? A 2-round match, with 1 team defending 1 base while the other attacks in a round and then the teams swap for the next round? There's a good opportunity for a proper fight for brawlers and base-cap crowd can have their tactics given a real challenge.

#8 Corvus Antaka

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 8,310 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationInner Sphere

Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:50 AM

The only chagne I think is needed is to cap cap speed at max 4 mechs per node cap speed, or [perhaps even the max cap speed of 2 mechs, vs the stacked incredible cap speed of 8 mechs. imagine how fast 12 mechs would cap a base in 12v12?

ridiculous imho.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users