91 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

I feel like everyone in this thread who is boasting about that time they had three 500 damage games must have missed my post on page two. I even included pictures for the reading-impaired!

In short: it's great that you have had a couple good games. Most mediums are awful, and besides capping, the only reasonable metric by which to judge mechs is their damage. Because mediums are completely eclipsed from their capping role as lights, the only thing left is damage, and heavies/assaults are almost always going to do better there.

[Keifomofutu]

Pihb, on 26 April 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

They could do something about the mech sizes. Other than that, I have no complaint.

Honestly that would satisfy most of us. Nobody is asking for a magic medium only ability.

I just want pgi to do a balance pass on mech profiles for a couple of the mediums and maybe even look at potentially raising the engine cap on some of them as well. For starters all cents should have the ability to mount a 300 engine.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 26 April 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[Teralitha]

aniviron, on 26 April 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

I feel like everyone in this thread who is boasting about that time they had three 500 damage games must have missed my post on page two. I even included pictures for the reading-impaired!

In short: it's great that you have had a couple good games. Most mediums are awful, and besides capping, the only reasonable metric by which to judge mechs is their damage. Because mediums are completely eclipsed from their capping role as lights, the only thing left is damage, and heavies/assaults are almost always going to do better there.

2 WORDS - HEAT EFFICIENCY

[Tesunie]

aniviron, on 26 April 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

I feel like everyone in this thread who is boasting about that time they had three 500 damage games must have missed my post on page two. I even included pictures for the reading-impaired!

In short: it's great that you have had a couple good games. Most mediums are awful, and besides capping, the only reasonable metric by which to judge mechs is their damage. Because mediums are completely eclipsed from their capping role as lights, the only thing left is damage, and heavies/assaults are almost always going to do better there.

I don't think you've seen some responses to your post on page two. I had a couple, and no one seems to have gotten close to them.

Mediums are relatively fine as they are as a class. It's all in how you play them. I'm not calling out a single game where I did 1600000 damage. I posted stats for all my mechs. I think they kinda speak for themselves. I've even broken it down to average damage per match for people who don't want to do the math. I found my numbers to be about the same no mater which mech I'm using. Heavier mechs seem to tend to have a generally higher average, but that is to be expected.

Now, however, you are forgetting something with your concepts. It isn't just about damage. Isn't just about capping. Kills per death isn't the only thing we can look at. What mediums do best is support. Sadly, they don't track assists, because I have a funny feeling you'd see mediums would get a lot of assists overall.

So, if you don't think people are responding to your post with their "look at how great I did in this one match", how about talk to someone who is trying to mention averages and overall game play effects of the medium? Kinda like how I am, and I'm sure Thontor would be willing to discuss it in larger statistical means too from what I've read of his posts in here and throughout the rest of the forums. If you wish to help, how about posting your mech general stats, so we can see how well your mediums do compared to your other class mechs? If we can gather enough data, we can see the picture as a whole, instead of as little pieces of the larger picture.

Teralitha, on 26 April 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

2 WORDS - HEAT EFFICIENCY

Can you explain to me what heat efficiency has to do with medium mechs over the other classes of mechs? I didn't think size really made any effect on this...

[aniviron]

Tesunie, on 26 April 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

I don't think you've seen some responses to your post on page two. I had a couple, and no one seems to have gotten close to them.

Mediums are relatively fine as they are as a class. It's all in how you play them. I'm not calling out a single game where I did 1600000 damage. I posted stats for all my mechs. I think they kinda speak for themselves. I've even broken it down to average damage per match for people who don't want to do the math. I found my numbers to be about the same no mater which mech I'm using. Heavier mechs seem to tend to have a generally higher average, but that is to be expected.

Now, however, you are forgetting something with your concepts. It isn't just about damage. Isn't just about capping. Kills per death isn't the only thing we can look at. What mediums do best is support. Sadly, they don't track assists, because I have a funny feeling you'd see mediums would get a lot of assists overall.

So, if you don't think people are responding to your post with their "look at how great I did in this one match", how about talk to someone who is trying to mention averages and overall game play effects of the medium? Kinda like how I am, and I'm sure Thontor would be willing to discuss it in larger statistical means too from what I've read of his posts in here and throughout the rest of the forums. If you wish to help, how about posting your mech general stats, so we can see how well your mediums do compared to your other class mechs? If we can gather enough data, we can see the picture as a whole, instead of as little pieces of the larger picture.

I did actually see your reply- yours was the one that stood out to me. I didn't comment on it partially because it shows what I expect- by far your most effective mech was the stalker, compared to the mediums. But more importantly, most of your mechs had a very small sample size of matches played. It's hard to draw any meaningful conclusion using stats when there are less than ten matches to draw from.

I can post my stats if you really want, but I do think it rather misses the point. It's not about how well any single player does, but rather how players in the aggregate do. There was a stat-gathering project recently, and it found that mediums made up a fairly small percentage of total mechs dropped (around 20%). Granted, this is actually not a terrible number, or at least not as bad as lights (10%) but people are choosing heavies and assaults (~35% each) overwhelmingly instead of mediums. If mediums were an effective way to win, they would be played more often. The stats bear these sorts of observations out- the mechs that are the most effective tend to dominate the stats sheets, which is why when you see lights, they tend to be RVN-3Ls or sometimes JR7-Ds. The mechs that win are more fun to play for most people, so you will see them more often- so it leaves one wondering why there are so few mediums.

[Victor Morson]

Thontor, on 26 April 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Just a little ingame story. Just ran into a cataphract on Alpine who had 2 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle... I got up into his face with my 3 Artemis SRM6s and 2 Medium Lasers, and we dueled with no assistance from either his teammates or mine, and I came out beat up, but victorious.

Long live the Mediums!

That's why my Phracts also packs 2 Smalls and an ER PPC mixed with the regular PPC. That way if you tried that on me I could give you a Gauss + 2 Smalls + 1 ER PPC slap inside of 70m.

Not to say your setup is bad. Even after the nerf, that's something I'd describe as "alright." But it's not good or great, and previously it was great. Once they fix missiles, that's a damned fine setup for sure.

Edited by Victor Morson, 26 April 2013 - 09:01 PM.

[Tesunie]

aniviron, on 26 April 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I did actually see your reply- yours was the one that stood out to me. I didn't comment on it partially because it shows what I expect- by far your most effective mech was the stalker, compared to the mediums. But more importantly, most of your mechs had a very small sample size of matches played. It's hard to draw any meaningful conclusion using stats when there are less than ten matches to draw from.

I can post my stats if you really want, but I do think it rather misses the point. It's not about how well any single player does, but rather how players in the aggregate do. There was a stat-gathering project recently, and it found that mediums made up a fairly small percentage of total mechs dropped (around 20%). Granted, this is actually not a terrible number, or at least not as bad as lights (10%) but people are choosing heavies and assaults (~35% each) overwhelmingly instead of mediums. If mediums were an effective way to win, they would be played more often. The stats bear these sorts of observations out- the mechs that are the most effective tend to dominate the stats sheets, which is why when you see lights, they tend to be RVN-3Ls or sometimes JR7-Ds. The mechs that win are more fun to play for most people, so you will see them more often- so it leaves one wondering why there are so few mediums.

I wouldn't necessarily rate something by how often it is played, but by how well it does when played. If it is only played 20% in matches, but ranks within the top 20% of matches when they are played, I'd say they are still effective (just throwing random numbers here). If they are played 20% of the time, but rank at the bottom of the charts all the time, then they have a problem.

Just because something isn't popular and isn't played often doesn't mean it isn't effective. It just isn't popular for whatever reason. If that was the case, not too long ago lights must have been the most effective thing around, with ECM Ravens all over the place. When a new mech is released, that must be really effective as they flood the field with their presence. (Just making a point here.)

I do realize that I'm only one pilot in the game. I also realize that the individual stat chart didn't catch my massive playing of medium mechs when I ground out masters on my Hunchback and Cicadas. Since the new stat tracking, I've been grinding out my Jagermech and Dragon really. If you want, I think it'd be great if we could get some more player stats on their mech's and how they preform for an average. Certainly more accurate of a picture than mech usage percentage. I want to see how effective they are on average when they are played on the field. I'd love to see kills, deaths, damage and assists. By crunching those numbers on a larger sampling than myself, we'd get a general average of how medium mechs preform compared to other class mechs.

Of course, no mater how we crunch numbers, it will always miss on how they are played. I've been known to play my medium as an interceptor, blocking foes from getting to other mechs, even if I die trying. I've also played bait before, drawing foes away from my team, or towards them. Sometimes, I even just play cover fire, where my aim is to force enemies back into cover, pining them in place. Not all tactics that a medium can do reflect in the stats. Though, for this, we can at least compare stats that can be recorded for a more generalized consensus. We, as players, can at least compare our own stats and findings, amongst ourselves, and see if we see a pattern. We might see a few people who play mediums better than other mechs. We might see more that don't. Can't say till we see the data, right?

I'd love to ask everyone who posts to submit their generalized mech data for us to crunch. I have no problems figuring out data from the charts if they are provided. If we wished, we could even make a who new thread about it, or do it all here.


As far as my personal data, I've done things with my Stalker, many other people were amazed who were watching me (lancemates). I always respond with "I just know this mech well". It's a natural fit for me. I can get my Stalker to turn around well, so I'm able to pry lights off my own rear. I also seem to have a knack for being able to go on with half a Stalker, still doing damage needed. I also seem to know what to shoot and where to be with a Stalker.

Personally, I find the extra speed of mediums (and fasts)(and Dragons) can sometimes get me in trouble, as I advance too far ahead of my team, and then get focused fired apart fast. However, at the same flip side, I've used them to screen, scout and flank before when I use them right. I'm surprisingly better with slower mechs than I am with faster mechs, unless it's a really fast mech, and then I can disengage and harass my foes. This means that, unless it's a slower medium or I show good restraint (or its my Cicada), I tend to have more mixed results with my medium mechs.


Sorry if I'm rambling. Should be in bed right now and I'm droning on my computer instead of sleeping. I'll probably read this post later and wonder what I was even writing.

[aniviron]

Tesunie, on 26 April 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

I wouldn't necessarily rate something by how often it is played... [snip- a lot of other good stuff]

While I wouldn't say it is universally true that mechs are played by how good they are, it is a strong indicator. There are, as you point out, exceptions. But again, you don't see many dragons or awesomes- it's not that they're not fun, they're just not as good at winning (this does have something to do with fun, for many people).

For a while, I would say the RVN-3L was the best mech in the game. It was unhittable, untargetable, and did good damage over time. I won't argue against your assertation that there were a lot of them- they were genuinely very very good. They're still quite good (and still far and away the most played light, according to the stats) but they're not as good as they once were, which is why you see less of them.

It's true that you can run interception, support, or cap backup well in a medium. But then again, my AWS-9M also does a pretty good job of that at 5kph slower than my hunchback, with twice the firepower. All those things you said mediums can do are true, but it's also true that most of those things can also be done by heavies, only better.

Anyway, I'm going to go shoot robots; here are my stats!

[Keifomofutu]

Your 4P is quite an outlier. What do you run on it?

[aniviron]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3df741467ea87ea

On cold maps, I brawl. On normal or hot maps, hit and runs. Part of the reason the kills are so high is that anything that is stripped can be taken down in one shot, or at most two. And because each laser has a chance to crit, even though the damage per alpha is the same as ac40 Jag, it crits much more often, so I prioritize targets that are missing armor sections.

[p4g3m4s7r]

I think part of the issue is that mediums were really good at killing lights until the only lights you saw were 3Ls. Then 3Ls became the thing to play to kill lights... and mediums... and some heavies... Then people almost stopped playing lights altogether because if you weren't playing a 3L or 2D you were basically not accomplishing anything and the slowly eroding worth of the medium mech just disappeared.

Now, with HSR, almost everything is good at killing lights, except for mediums because they're so slow and just outside the realm of maneuverable enough to do anything. Also, everything is really good at killing mediums. Also, mediums have never done a lot of damage. So the big reason to pilot mediums (the ability to protect a good number of your heavies and assaults from lights) is nowhere to be found, and it's not even that good of a reason anymore.

Also, people argue that they're good if you make sure you're not the center of attention and you're supporting another heavy or assault. You know what else is good in that situation? Every mech that does over ~70 kph. Especially heavies and assaults.

I think they should up the engine limit on the hunchback and slightly shrink its profile, significantly shrink the profile of the cent, shrink the profile of the tbk, and leave the cicada alone (those are actually pretty good and common). Also, they should make all of these mechs more maneuverable.

Also, I think they should put some effort into making sure fast lights are more common and that lights can be even faster than they are now. Or make heavies and assaults less maneuverable.

[El Bandito]

Zombie Centurions still give me nightmares.