32 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

Time and time again I hear people make comments about teamwork\playstyle in regards to balance.

The age old example is this

X: My Medium mech seems weaker than other classes?

Y: Stay near larger mechs and use the enemy's target priority list against them!

People always use this as an example when arguing that medium mechs\dragons are balanced and viable.

This is bad logic

Realistically 'shadowing' is something every mech can benefit from equally. (Especially 86.6kph phracts)

If you play any heavy mech in a second-line role you can hide behind your teammates just as well as any cent or hunch.

(people CHOOSE not to because they feel like front line mechs, when really they don;t have to be)

However if push comes to shove you can stand up in a 1v1 as well, take more of the occasional snipes sent your way, and dish out twice the DPS.

Mediums' jack of all trades\master of none status is really catching up to them IMO

Edited by LordBraxton, 26 April 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[Hellcat420]

your saying medium mechs should be able to 1v1 heavy and assault mechs?

[Zyllos]

Hellcat420, on 26 April 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

your saying medium mechs should be able to 1v1 heavy and assault mechs?

Not even close.

What he is saying is that a mech should be able to provide effective fire without being crippled in one shot or not being able to provide an effective role due to how mechanics unfavorably affect them. All this should be independent of teamplay.

Edited by Zyllos, 26 April 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

You're spot-on. A team of 4 CTF-3Ds working together is going to be much more battlefield-effective than a single Atlas with 3 mediums playing "bodyguard."

[Teralitha]

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

[Keifomofutu]

Hellcat420, on 26 April 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

your saying medium mechs should be able to 1v1 heavy and assault mechs?

Hes saying a medium hiding behind atlas' skirts the whole match is partially a waste of a mech that could be out doing something more useful instead.

Have the heavy hang back watching the assault's back he can snipe part time as well.

[TOGSolid]

Tonnage limits fix this problem and they're confirmed as going on in so I'm not quite sure why this is still being brought up.

[Lefty Lucy]

Teralitha, on 26 April 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

Double heat sinks are the only things keeping mediums and lights even slightly abreast of heavier classes.

[barnmaddo]

Lefty Lucy, on 26 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Double heat sinks are the only things keeping mediums and lights even slightly abreast of heavier classes.

Only because they take so many crit spots, and 10 free ones you get in the engine really are double, while the extra ones you add aren't. So heat doesn't scale linearly with tonage.

That doesn't give Mediums an advantage, it just gives them less of a disadvantage.

Edited by barnmaddo, 26 April 2013 - 10:44 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

barnmaddo, on 26 April 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Only because they take so many crit spots, and 10 free ones you get in the engine really are double, while the extra ones you add aren't. So heat doesn't scale linearly with tonage.

That doesn't give Mediums an advantage, it just gives them less of a disadvantage.

Many mediums don't need to run more than the engine heatsinks. So the free ones being better is an advantage. Assaults usually need to give up tonnage and crit space to run as efficiently as mediums or lights.

[Brilig]

I think MWO has done a pretty decent job with weight class balance so far. That being said Medium mechs do fall into a not so sweet spot of size, speed, armor, and fire power.

I think the only fix for this would be matches with a max tonnage limit. Though that does open up its own can of worms.

[TOGSolid]

Lefty Lucy, on 26 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Double heat sinks are the only things keeping mediums and lights even slightly abreast of heavier classes.

ignore him, he's spamming that in every balance thread just to troll.

Brilig, on 26 April 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

I think MWO has done a pretty decent job with weight class balance so far. That being said Medium mechs do fall into a not so sweet spot of size, speed, armor, and fire power.

I think the only fix for this would be matches with a max tonnage limit. Though that does open up its own can of worms.

How so?

Edited by TOGSolid, 26 April 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[Brilig]

TOGSolid, on 26 April 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

How so?

Not sure which part you were reffereing to so here is all lof it.

As far as thinking the balance is pretty good so far. I think the mechs feel about right for their weight class. Personal opinion.

In regards to the not so sweet spot. With the way match making works now, its almost always better to go a class heavier, or a class lighter depending on what your trying to accomplish. Lights are faster/smaller, so they are harder to hit, and almost have as much fire power. Heavies are better armed/armored, but just a little slower, and just as easy to hit.

Not saying mediums arn't fun or viable, ( I love my hunchies.) but when it comes down to it they don't fill a role quite as well as a different weight class can.

Heres why I think tonnage limit might help. Depending on the tonnage limit, it can be advantagous to field several lighter mechs, rather than a few heavier mechs. Mediums become more valuble in some situations where it is better to have 2 mediums in the place of 1 assault mech.


Tonage limits would create its own set of issues. For instance if you like to pilot assaults you might have trouble finding games because you take up a lot of tonnage. It could split the player base more between tonnage limit levels. It would likely always be better to take as many mechs as possible because swarming tactics can work very well. (Though with HSR that might change.)

Edit: Fixed up explination of tonnage limit benifits to mediums.

Edited by Brilig, 27 April 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Teralitha, on 26 April 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

Remove GD problem solved

oh wait Ive seen this post before. Deja Vu

[Deathlike]

I thought Teamwork was OP.

[Asmudius Heng]

My belief is that early on PGI thought that each mech is balanced against each other with higher tonage hamstringing your agility as a counterbalance to lighter mechs being more agile but having less weapons.

When lag was a big issue this seemed true. However Battletech and mechwarrior has always been about tonnage. Tonnage ALWAYS matters. Bigger is not always better, but you cannot believe that a medium is worth a heavy.

People used to spam that there was an order to mechs: lights<mediums<heavies<assaults<lights

I am glad that kind of BS is put to bed now the lag issues have been solved.

Tonnage limits will always be were it is at. However a Battlevalue would be better. Something like Rolands idea of a dynamic battlevalue based on how often a chassis is used. Hell it can even tie into tonnage.

Lets say a 35 ton mech is overly used then it miht be worth 40 tons or even 45 if it is the flavour of the month encouraging people to take lesser used mechs to bolster thier team tonnage. On the other end if a 35 tone mech was getting NO love at all it might be worth 30 or 25 tons to encourage people to use it.

Then when you drop in a mech you know how much value you are generally adding. IT also means that those ace liht piltos will still lift a team hugely and terrible assault pilots are still terrible but nothing will change that

[Victor Morson]

LordBraxton, on 26 April 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Mediums' jack of all trades\master of none status is really catching up to them IMO

Anyone who thought they could balance mediums with everything else in the game while adhering to BattleTech rules was insane. Their only option is to break with canon entirely if they wanted that.

No, they need to add tonnage/BV into match making, so the strength of a medium is freeing total team tonnage.

[Chemie]

unitl they have a ton limit on the pug queue, everyone will drop in Assaults and heavies.

Lights are too fragile (now). As it is lights can ONLY scout and in pug games, that is a useless team contribution, especially without comms.
Mediums are useless compared to dropping heavier.

All weekend, 80% of mechs are A/H. If they have a ton limit, and the assaults get real 2 minute waits for a match or "failed to find match", maybe there would be better drop diversity. Then mediums and lights would have a role.

[Taemien]

Chemie, on 28 April 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

unitl they have a ton limit on the pug queue, everyone will drop in Assaults and heavies.

Lights are too fragile (now). As it is lights can ONLY scout and in pug games, that is a useless team contribution, especially without comms.
Mediums are useless compared to dropping heavier.

All weekend, 80% of mechs are A/H. If they have a ton limit, and the assaults get real 2 minute waits for a match or "failed to find match", maybe there would be better drop diversity. Then mediums and lights would have a role.

And what if that newbie who just used their cadet bonus money and only has an Assault?
He quits. Why wouldn't he? He's not playing anyway.

I'm all about throwing newbies into the fire and telling them to get better. But that assumes they are getting into a match in the first place.

And don't even bother listening to Teralitha. Half his posts are "Remove double heatsinks" he's just a forum troll.

[Victor Morson]

Taemien, on 28 April 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

And what if that newbie who just used their cadet bonus money and only has an Assault?
He quits. Why wouldn't he? He's not playing anyway.

If the current match making was staying as it is, I'd not ever push a Ton/BV limit.. on the que.

Rather, I'd expect the matchmaker to look at the available groups of 'mechs and try to put them into a game of even tonnage. Sure if everybody takes assaults, you'll have assault heavy games, but if you take a medium it'll try to fit you into some match where the tonnages will be roughly similar.

There's no reason BV/Tonnage matching can't co-exist with no-limits matchmaking.