86 replies to this topic

[Hauser]

Farpenoodle, on 27 April 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

Here is my build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3a7ccd8d1d8c88e

Since I don't have any Trenchbuckets I gave the load out out a try on the 4J. Instead of an XL300 I used a XL255 and added a tag and extra ton of ammo. I'm not really impressed. I managed to get a few good matches. Most of the time it was because I ran into inexperienced pilots that didn't go for cover or twist their CT away.

The problem is that with tag and artemis they go straight for the CT. At the current damage values that is pretty good. Yet when you don't have line of sight, or if the target turns away or gets into cover the damage just doesn't suffice.

For the same tonnage and heat efficiency in the same mech you can get 3xPPC + 2xDHS. That's 30pts of pin point damage rather then 20 from lrms (spread out) and 15 from mediums.

Edited by Hauser, 27 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Farpenoodle]

That would be why I rarely fire a shot I intend to hit without LOS.

[Victor Morson]

Tangelis, on 27 April 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

LRM's in my opinion are a support/suppression weapon and I think like any other weapon if used properly can yield incredible results. During the ECM fest I'd say they were not generally viable unless you were a master of dumbfiring, but these days even as they are can do wonders. A little tweaking needed? Perhaps, but overall I think they are doing what they are supposed to do.

Play something other a PUG, then re-read this and weep for your lost innocence.

[Farpenoodle]

In other news since the first day of tournament is done I'll be switching to my try hard TBT-7M. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bc7a2f43ade92d0

For the curious I did manage to break top 10 for a small period and have ended the first day at 12th on the daily rankings with a score of 895 using nothing but my TBT-3C.

[IceSerpent]

Skyfaller, on 27 April 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

LRM damage is fine as it is now.

You take a 4 LRM15 with artemis boat to the practice server and fire it at the atlas from the front. You will waste nearly 3 tons of ammo before you get him into the red.

3 tons of LRM ammo = 540 missiles, 4 LRM15s fire 60 missiles per salvo, so it takes you 9 salvos (34 seconds) to get a training grounds Atlas into the red. Yet, you are saying that damage is just fine? How long do you think it will take an Atlas packing, let's say, PPCs to take your LRM boat out?

Edit: actually it's more than 34 seconds - I didn't account for time needed to get a lock.

Edited by IceSerpent, 27 April 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

LackofCertainty, on 27 April 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

I agree with the OP. People got spoiled with LRMs that could shred assaults in 2 salvos. With the nerf they're a little sub-par, but they're still definitely usable. All I really think they need is faster flight time and HSR for missiles, and they'll be fine.



... but to play devil's advocate, LRM's are probably superficially strong for this event. With a couple LRM's mounted, it's relatively easy to get assists on every enemy mech, which is pretty big. Also, since they spread damage a lot, they bloat your damage score significantly. With pinpoint damage weapons, you can shred through 1-2 locations and get the kill efficiently. With missiles, you're probably going to strip all the armor off their torsos (and maybe their arms too) before you get the kill. Also, their indirect fire capabilities, mean that you can keep your mech out of the direct fight, while still contributing, which increases your chances of surviving the round. (more points there)

This.

[Skyfaller]

IceSerpent, on 27 April 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

3 tons of LRM ammo = 540 missiles, 4 LRM15s fire 60 missiles per salvo, so it takes you 9 salvos (34 seconds) to get a training grounds Atlas into the red. Yet, you are saying that damage is just fine? How long do you think it will take an Atlas packing, let's say, PPCs to take your LRM boat out?

Edit: actually it's more than 34 seconds - I didn't account for time needed to get a lock.

Yes the damage is fine because the entire atlas's body was red. No LRM mech can ever withstand or win a face-to-face duel vs a ppc mech..not even when missiles were not nerfed (not counting the 2-salvo kills atlas patch that ubered there to ungodly levels for a few days).

But.. when you consider the LRM is usually used to soften up targets from range and then, once at ~500m switch to supporting the brawlers as they circle each other.. then yes...the damage is fine. More than fine. Even now I get tons of kills just slapping 4 LRM15s into enemy mechs circling my friends. The brawling mechs on my side provide the pinpoint damage that weakens one component and my missiles put the finishing touch.

Sometimes its the other way around..when I get someone that is dumb enough to be in the wide open in a slow mech I pump LRMs down its throat from 1km away and by the time IT gets into firing range of my team his armor is practically gone all over his chest.

THAT is a true support weapon. It doesnt kill all on its own but it does put the finishing punch on a circle brawl fight by hitting a wide area with relatively good damage.and constantly which shortens the time my brawling friend has to be vulnerable to other enemies...and it seriously softens up targets for range so that the before mentioned brawl circle fight ends as quickly as possible.

The problem NOW is that the missile warning message is allowing mechs 1km away to know the swarm is coming for them not their friend next to them. Thus out of the possible 8 mechs (if they move in a group) running for cover and delaying...or choosing to take the damage... only one has to. Thats just dumb.

Now, instead of being able to position your LRM support mech on a distance with a good line of fire on the enemy team, you have to get close in to under 500m because your missiles will likely just be wasted as the target will just run for cover the instant the missiles leave your bay doors.

...and when you do get into a firing position you find yourself now, without the ammo to inflict lethal damage on anything bigger than a medium mech because you dont have the damage per ton potential you need.

Thus.. double LRM ammo and remove the missile warning message.

Edited by Skyfaller, 27 April 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

2 LRM 20's are not support weapons. They are primary weapons meant to be just as useful and feared as a mech packing 2-3 PPC.

[Void Angel]

Islington, on 27 April 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

LRM's were and are an incredibly annoying part of an otherwise great game. The nerf should not be changed stop talking about it.

... Wait, wait, so they were "incredibly annoying" before the nerf and they still are?!

Their power level doesn't matter to you, and you don't actually care about fairness or balance - you just hate having to use cover to dodge missiles, and want them nerfed into the ground so you don't have to learn to play. NEXT!

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 April 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

2 LRM 20's are not support weapons. They are primary weapons meant to be just as useful and feared as a mech packing 2-3 PPC.

I can get behind the notion of LRMs as "softening" weapons, because they spread their damage - the problem with them now is that they spread their damage and deal substantially less DPS/ton than most other nearly all long-range weapons.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 April 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Skyfaller]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 April 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

2 LRM 20's are not support weapons. They are primary weapons meant to be just as useful and feared as a mech packing 2-3 PPC.

Its like saying an LBX10 isnt a support weapon. Or an SRM. Anything that does spread-out damage is support when it comes to the mechanics of this game. A single lrm20 does about 5/6ths the damage of a single PPC but all over the enemy mech's torso area (mostly). Primary weapons are direct fire weapons.

[Void Angel]

Void Angel, on 27 April 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

... Wait, wait, so they were "incredibly annoying" before the nerf and they still are?!

Their power level doesn't matter to you, and you don't actually care about fairness or balance - you just hate having to use cover to dodge missiles, and want them nerfed into the ground so you don't have to learn to play. NEXT!


I can get behind the notion of LRMs as "softening" weapons, because they spread their damage - the problem with them now is that they spread their damage and deal substantially less DPS/ton than most other nearly all long-range weapons.

[Corvus Antaka]

Skyfaller, on 27 April 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Its like saying an LBX10 isnt a support weapon. Or an SRM. Anything that does spread-out damage is support when it comes to the mechanics of this game. A single lrm20 does about 5/6ths the damage of a single PPC but all over the enemy mech's torso area (mostly). Primary weapons are direct fire weapons.

by this logic everything except gauss/ppc/ac10 is a "support" weapon.

an lrm 20 is 10 tons and ammo another 4 tons to be useful and have enough ammo. given 1 erppc doesnt need anything beyond engine heatsinks, an LRM 20 can be countered by AMS/cover/ECM the LRM 20 is never a smart choice, even as a "support" weapon.

[Fenris Krinkovich]

Hellcat420, on 27 April 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

lrm's are good to soften a target up before you move in to close range fight.

Then why isn't the same true of PPC and Gauss? Why is it somehow acceptable for PPC and Gauss to be terrifyingly effective weapons but not LRM's? And if you say "skill", then I seriously doubt you've spent much time pouring LRM's downrange. They're probably the least reliable weapon in the game (even MG and Flamer do what they're supposed to do, even if what they're supposed to do is suck.)

If they're supposed to "soften up" targets by spreading damage around, as others have suggested, I can live with that. However, they've been designed to do this at a shorter range and with far less accuracy than the "primary" weapons they're meant to support. LRM's *must* be a support weapon, fine. They're a poorly designed support weapon.

Edited by Fenris Krinkovich, 27 April 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Void Angel]

Also, I'm not you can make the statement "primary weapons are direct-fire weapons" as a unilateral claim. Sure, focused damage will get kills quicker, but you're treating damage spread as a benefit (or at least a neutral feature,) instead of as a drawback - this is incorrect. Any weapon that does spread damage is less effective at killing BattleMechs than an equivalent damage weapon that deals damage directly. If an LRM20 (which weighs 21 tons with Artemis) is only doing 5/6ths of a PPC (at a THIRD of the LRM20s weight) AND scattering that damage, there's no reason to bring that weapon system, ever.^*

There is no "support" there, unless the scatter weapon brings something else to the table - such as critical hit damage, in the case of the LB-10X. There was a reason they buffed that weapon system, and the indirect fire ability of LRMs isn't enough of a benefit to absorb the drawbacks of being a scatter weapon, and dealing far less damage/ton than other weapon systems. The flight time is being looked at, and should provide a needed tweak to the weapon system, but the damage just isn't where we need it to be in order for LRMs to be a good weapon again.

*: Your numbers are in fact wrong, in any case. An LRM whose missiles all hit home will do ~0.939 damage per missile, including splash damage. This works out to a little over 18 damage per volley for twenty-one tons of weapon (plus ammunition) Compare to 10 damage for a mere seven tons of ERPPC, then remember the effects of cover, anti-missile systems, damage spread, and the total lockout ability of ECM. There's a reason you're only seeing a few die-hards using LRMs any more - largely because everyone is so focused on long-range sniping that it's hard for brawlers to reach them.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 April 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[AC]

I think people got spoiled with the indirect fire LRM's. They could sit back and not have to do anything but hold a button down. I personally love LRM's now that they require you to actually do something. LOS LRM fire is much more accurate and does more damage, so I have to move around and plan LOS to targets. It is more fun, and I get plenty of kills and damage.

That said... I do think they need an increase in flight speed and an increase in recycle time. It seems like you are able to fire way too often. Especially with an increase flight speed. Increase the flight speed and slightly nerf the reload time.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Indirect LRM fire has always been bad unless....note the unless...you are playing against bad players.

Direct LRM fire is mostly the same way, though depending on where you engage sometimes you can get lucky.

In the end though, LRM's are ALWAYS bad against the best most well organized teams. Just because you have some good games while pugging doesn't mean anything. And just remember, ECM is now not the main meta due to LRM's being such crap.

If they get buffed at all, you can be sure ECM is gonna come back like crazy and indirectly nerf them again.

[Skyfaller]

Void Angel, on 27 April 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Also, I'm not you can make the statement "primary weapons are direct-fire weapons" as a unilateral claim. Sure, focused damage will get kills quicker, but you're treating damage spread as a benefit (or at least a neutral feature,) instead of as a drawback - this is incorrect. Any weapon that does spread damage is less effective at killing BattleMechs than an equivalent damage weapon that deals damage directly.

Yes, this is why I label it a 'support' weapon. If you think you're going to reliably kill with them you're sadly deluded. The support portion of it is that it does damage, from range, multiple armor points on the target and softens it up for other mechs to hit with pinpoint weapons. LRM is the best example of it... it hits all over the chest area (mostly) doing MORE TOTAL DAMAGE than a PPC but 5/6ths the damage average of a PPC to each individual armor section.

Quote

If an LRM20 (which weighs 21 tons with Artemis) is only doing 5/6ths of a PPC (at a THIRD of the LRM20s weight) AND scattering that damage, there's no reason to bring that weapon system, ever.^*

As I said above, it does do more total damage than a ppc but less than one to an individual armor component. The LRM is a completely different weapon than a direct fire weapon so the reasons to bring it along solely depends on the mech's build. I find my role in a stalker to be better served packing LRMs and supporting my friends than to try to brawl in it and watch my absurdly thinly armored and very easy to hit RT/LT sections glow red in a couple of hits.

Quote

There is no "support" there, unless the scatter weapon brings something else to the table - such as critical hit damage, in the case of the LB-10X. There was a reason they buffed that weapon system, and the indirect fire ability of LRMs isn't enough of a benefit to absorb the drawbacks of being a scatter weapon, and dealing far less damage/ton than other weapon systems. The flight time is being looked at, and should provide a needed tweak to the weapon system, but the damage just isn't where we need it to be in order for LRMs to be a good weapon again.

LRM has the benefit of indirect fire through an observer and it can hit a target behind cover in some situations. Of course its not as good as having a direct LOS and aim at a target if youre packing direct damage weapons but its got its uses and its moments.

Quote

*: Your numbers are in fact wrong, in any case. An LRM whose missiles all hit home will do ~0.939 damage per missile, including splash damage. This works out to a little over 18 damage per volley for twenty-one tons of weapon (plus ammunition) Compare to 10 damage for a mere seven tons of ERPPC, then remember the effects of cover, anti-missile systems, damage spread, and the total lockout ability of ECM. There's a reason you're only seeing a few die-hards using LRMs any more - largely because everyone is so focused on long-range sniping that it's hard for brawlers to reach them.

There's also the thing about LRMs not missing unless the target breaks lock/LOS or is in cover. Cover itself is not even a factor when comparing both weapons since cover is cover..and LRM can fly over cover in some situations.

Like I said, I use a quad LRM15+artemis stalker .. tag and 5 med lasers. I know im not the killing machine I was before the nerf but I do not feel limited in any way. My brawlers get into a circle fight and keep the target locked, im behind some hill moving forward to assist and I can still send damage assist even though I have no LOS. When I have LOS the artemis kicks in and i can provide higher and more consistent damage with LRMs than I would firing PPCs or large lasers where I could probably miss half the shots...LRMs do hit when lock is maintained and there is no object between the target and missiles.

[Void Angel]

Skyfaller, on 27 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

But.. when you consider the LRM is usually used to soften up targets from range and then, once at ~500m switch to supporting the brawlers as they circle each other.. then yes...the damage is fine. More than fine. Even now I get tons of kills just slapping 4 LRM15s into enemy mechs circling my friends. The brawling mechs on my side provide the pinpoint damage that weakens one component and my missiles put the finishing touch. Sometimes its the other way around..when I get someone that is dumb enough to be in the wide open in a slow mech I pump LRMs down its throat from 1km away and by the time IT gets into firing range of my team his armor is practically gone all over his chest. THAT is a true support weapon. It doesnt kill all on its own but it does put the finishing punch on a circle brawl fight by hitting a wide area with relatively good damage.and constantly which shortens the time my brawling friend has to be vulnerable to other enemies...and it seriously softens up targets for range so that the before mentioned brawl circle fight ends as quickly as possible. The problem NOW is that the missile warning message is allowing mechs 1km away to know the swarm is coming for them not their friend next to them.

No, the damage is not fine, and no, the missile warning is not the problem. The problem is that the amount of damage the LRM does is so far outclassed by so many comparable weapon systems that there is little to recommend the system. You can ameliorate the problem by using teamwork and tactics, but the end result is still sub-par. People are more and more often not using anti-missile systems in their builds. Sure, if they trundle across the open without seeking cover, you can do a lot of damage to them - and anyone armed with an equivalent tonnage of PPC will do more. If they hit them all on the same spot, they might kill them; if they hit them on multiple spots, the result is similar to an LRM volley - except more total damage will have been done. The only situation where this is not the case is when some slow assault is trundling across the open long enough that your heat efficiency lets you pull ahead - and weapons aren't balanced because of their effects on some hopeless newbie who's so confused he doesn't even know what's going on, or what to do about it. Weapon balance is based on the use of a weapon by and against competent players, and in that arena it simply falls short.

Furthermore, you have to take into account the advantages and disadvantages of the system: on the plus side, it can deal full damage at very long ranges, and it can fire without line of sight using a spotter -but with somewhat reduced accuracy. On the DOWN side, it is far easier to seek cover against (hence why I listed cover as a disadvantage of the system,) does far less damage/ton than other comparable weapon systems, and is completely shut down by uncountered ECM - both offensively and defensively used ECM, at that. The ERPPC, by comparison, performs so much better (both overall and in the long-range weapon role) that the indirect fire capabilities of the LRM are still not enough to make the latter an attractive weapon system.

Also, you are still arguing using the wrong numbers;

Spoiler

LRMs do NOT do "5/6ths" of an ERPPC's damage by any means. You seem to think that it does ~8.33 damage to each component hit (if for example three locations were hit) - if this were the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation. What actually happens is that a full salvo from an LRM20 will do 0.7 damage for each missile wherever that missile happens to hit, with additional damage done to surrounding locations based on a radius from impact. The average damage per missile will vary based on the situation and the 'mech hit (smaller means more damage,) and numbers I've seen calculated by players range from 0.939 to 0.950 damage per missile. This means that the LRM 20 under optimal conditions will deal 18-19 damage per salvo, compared to 10 damage from a PPC. However, that single LRM20 weighs substantially more than a PPC, and with a substantially longer cycle time. Thus, while the LRM20 will indeed deal more damage per shot than a PPC, it actually is significantly less effective on a ton-for-ton basis. And that's with proper teamwork and coordination and positioning to make the rounds hit home. You lack a certain amount of credibility when your argument does not match what the weapon system actually does.

Certainly, you can get good damage numbers when firing into a brawl where no one is paying attention to you. You can pull down good numbers with nearly any weapon if no one pays attention to you! Ask a Hunchback pilot. The difficulty, and the debate, is that PPCs (and Large Lasers, and UAC/5s, and AC/2s...) will pull down better numbers while additionally being pinpoint-damage kill weapons. This is a Bad Thing. In order to make the LRM an effective system, it needs to do at least the same DPS/ton as other long-ranged weapons, if only to account for damage spread. If not, it all comes down to the ERPPC Song.

Edited for science-ness.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 April 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[Void Angel]

AC, on 27 April 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I think people got spoiled with the indirect fire LRM's. They could sit back and not have to do anything but hold a button down. I personally love LRM's now that they require you to actually do something. LOS LRM fire is much more accurate and does more damage, so I have to move around and plan LOS to targets. It is more fun, and I get plenty of kills and damage.

That said... I do think they need an increase in flight speed and an increase in recycle time. It seems like you are able to fire way too often. Especially with an increase flight speed. Increase the flight speed and slightly nerf the reload time.

I never used LRMs indirectly, for the most part. Sometimes, if you know the terrain, you can get good effects, or if you have a buddy/PUG who knows how to spot. But the best results for LRMs have always been line of sight - you'd fire indirectly, but you knew it was a low-percentage shot.

Also, they do NOT do the same damage. Not even CLOSE. LRMs are doing an average of 18-19 points of damage per 20 missiles right now - and that's the total damage spread over all points hit. That's not inconsiderable, but it's substantially lower dps/ton than any PPC - and to get good effects, you have to go Line-of-Sight to the target. This means that you expose yourself to some amount of direct fire to use LRMs optimally, and in that direct-fire role, the PPC outperforms the LRM handily.

[Volthorne]

Uh, Void, I hate to break it to you, but LRM-20s only weigh 10 tons apiece, not 21.