54 replies to this topic

[Asmosis]

Rofl, on 28 April 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Perhaps if generic location was based on attackers POV and orientation was based off targets POV during HSR checks it'd work.

well the problem there is it takes all the skil out of aiming because you can't aim for a specific location. There is still variance with HSR though so its sortof like the "middle ground" for the attacker and defender.

yes it sucks that you probably can't twist out of the way reliably vs high ping players, but thats a much better alternative to them not being able to hit you at all. it does mean pre-emptive turning though, and at best its 0.2sec or so. I know that makes a difference but some people overstate it too much. torso's dont twist that fast to begin with.

@OP torso twist though. its very valid, you dont twist to move away when they fire, you torso twist to "shoot from the hip" and then twist back to show w/e is least exposed. odds are if you do it that way regardless of ping they dont have enough time to get PPC rounds into where they want them even on their screen.

Edited by Asmosis, 06 May 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[Eddrick]

Rhent, on 27 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

The speed limit for lights is exactly where it needs to be. You need to learn how to:
-Serpentine
-Increase/Decrease speed
-Strafing runs
-Form light packs to pick off and destroys heavies/assaults

There are a few things that need to be taken into account with this. With how fast shots travel compared to how fast a mech can move (Even without the speed limits). Dodging is out of the question. You need to make the enemy miss.

[Holographic Universe]

IDK if this has been said or not didn't read the entire thread, But what they could do is increase the hit boxes of the left and right torso to cover the CT a little bit. Hitting a destroyed left or right torso sends the damage to the CT anyway.


To use the catapult as an example. The CT is front and center with the right and left torso's soooo tiny. If im forced into a brawl i either have to twist and hope they hit my arm or risk getting cored insanely quick. All im sayin is make those left and rights a little larger compared to the CT.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Honestly, I can do it just fine in a hunchback 4P aswell. Sure it's a little harder, but against heavies and assaults i rarely get less than full damage into a single location.

There are tricks you can use, for example aim for the stalkers head and he can't torso twist away front CT damage, requires elevated positioning though.

AC40, 4PPC, 2 Gauss is just easier, thats all. Boating those weapons have enough downsides as it is, except the PPC's maybe because of their ease of use.

Can't wait for clan mechs like the Dire Wolf with dual or tripple UAC20 and the ensuring 120 damage point alpha, haha.

[FupDup]

Rhent, on 27 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

The speed limit for lights is exactly where it needs to be.

No, it's not.

It artificially puts every light at the same speed and thus leaves armor and weapons as the only determining factors of which light is the king...and we all know how that has turned out for the past few months. A Spider, for instance, should damn well be able to outrun almost anything to compensate for lackluster armaments and the upcoming Flea will be DOA with the ~150kph speed cap because of nonexistent armor (can prolly instakill with just ~3 Streaks, a weapon which nearly all missile-capable mechs mount very often) and unimpressive loadouts (5 SL...trololol).

Edited by FupDup, 24 May 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[Chou Senwan]

As I've said in other places, it might be better once dropship comes in with 'respawning.' It's one thing to die in one shot then come back into the game. It's another to spend a minute finding a game, then a minute or two finding the enemies, then to die in one hit. That was just two minutes wasted.

It's especially frustrating when you're a Jenner scouting, and you're running along at 150 kph, bobbing up and down so you don't present an easy target, and a Stalker who's 800 meters away still tags you with 6 PPCs in the center torso.

Or when you're in Canyon, and you've done a good job getting LOS on enemies, hiding, typing to your teammates what you saw, then moving on to try to scout more. And combat gets engaged, and you've barely been scraped by a few errant laser swipes from 500 meters out. And you decide to try to flank and help distract the enemies or maybe even slice out an inattentive mech's rear armor. And you round a corner at 150 kph, only to find a Jaeger with dual AC/20s and seismic sensors who was waiting for you. And he cores you in a single shot.

These things happen at least once or twice a night.

[Accursed Richards]

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

Assuming that problem isn't dual gauss, or alpha-shutdown-alpha tactics. But you've been mindlessly spamming this for a while, so I kind of doubt you'll read this reply.

Deadmaminal, on 18 May 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

IDK if this has been said or not didn't read the entire thread, But what they could do is increase the hit boxes of the left and right torso to cover the CT a little bit. Hitting a destroyed left or right torso sends the damage to the CT anyway.


To use the catapult as an example. The CT is front and center with the right and left torso's soooo tiny. If im forced into a brawl i either have to twist and hope they hit my arm or risk getting cored insanely quick. All im sayin is make those left and rights a little larger compared to the CT.

This does seem extremely uneven between mech designs. With a Stalker, I always lose one or both side torsos before the centre. With a Cataphract, it's more common to lose the centre with nothing else destroyed. With a Jenner....man, I don't think I've ever actually lose the side torso on a Jenner.

[mack sabbath]

Inkarnus, on 02 May 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

amen to that
We are playing not counterstrike with huge robots here
killing a mech from 1000 meters by jumping out of cover by 3 other mechs is a bs mechanic
same goes for killing another mech in 10 seconds even thou he is a an assault mech
this game needsd a bit slower to be enjoyable atm its just that i move more than
i fight and anybody saying that ppc boating is fun should stay with casual games
and not with a sim that atm gets watered down even further


this is how a fight should be

That video made me hard....is that wrong?

[MustrumRidcully]

Die Primate Die, on 27 May 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

That video made me hard....is that wrong?

If it is, I don't want to be right.

[Too Tall Kowalsky]

First off, I agree that a major challenge in adapting Battletech to a platform like MWO is either pruning away or converting the way damage was dealt and that armor values, damage transference, and most everything damage related were balanced off of that randomness. Finding an acceptable workaround or alteration is going to be extremely difficult and any change to such a system is going to take a lot of time. Flaming the devs might make you feel better, but it's not going to make changes happen.

Anyway.

I had always assumed in TT that excessive heat (ignoring the part where the pilot risks actually cooking themselves) disrupted a mech's systems, ie your HUD goes bonkers. Your computer has trouble finding locks, your crosshair(s) move erratically, that kind of thing. I'm also still amazed that auto cannons have either zero or negligible spread, especially past their optimal range. You have to compensate for a tiny bit of fall-off, sure, but there's no variation otherwise. Additionally, considering increased weapon spread was one of the drawbacks of UACs, not needing to deal with a slug -- that is quite literally powered by an explosion -- going exactly where you need it strikes me as a curious omission.

I know a lot of people hate the idea of your crosshair != where your shot goes, but at the same time that's usually a core part of any other game that is in some way a shooter. Both bullet spread and weapon sway (or at least increased spread) while moving are two things that are almost always present.

There's also a multitude of ways to implement the aforementioned 20+ damage having a chance to knock a mech down from TT. It doesn't need to mean you actually fall over, it could be a much more severe rocking of the mech's torso (think of what an Atlas does when you hit it with an AC/20), or, I don't know, they could actually use the fact that you can look around your cockpit and force the pilot's PoV to not be glued to the center piece of glass in the cockpit for a couple seconds.

There are cues that can be taken from flight simulators as well that could introduce difficulty under certain circumstances: think red-out and black-out. Things that aren't adding RNG onto where and how well you hit something, or forcing changes on a weapon's attributes, but that instead make it harder for the player, as a human, to accomplish exactly what they want without making it impossible.

Really all I'm trying to say is that, yes things like heat could still use some changes, but there are a huge number of ways to alter gameplay or penalize certain actions without introducing arbitrariness to the game's core mechanics.

[Bagheera]

zztophat, on 27 April 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Better light pilots have learned to adapt and are hitting and running or only engaging targets that are already distracted but the days of circle straffing an elephant are over, if you try that now you will eat whatever they are serving when you pass in front of them. That is unless the heavier mech pilot is terrible.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the "Circle-Jerk-Leg-Humper" should never have been a viable tactic in the first place. That maneuver should have always been as suicidal for light mechs as it was in the days of knockdown.

It's not HSR that ruined the light mech experience for some people, it's learning to drive them without knockdown that spoiled them into thinking that lights were unstoppable brawling machines.

[Shakespeare]

Too Tall Kowalsky, on 28 May 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

I know a lot of people hate the idea of your crosshair != where your shot goes, but at the same time that's usually a core part of any other game that is in some way a shooter. Both bullet spread and weapon sway (or at least increased spread) while moving are two things that are almost always present.

There's also a multitude of ways to implement the aforementioned 20+ damage having a chance to knock a mech down from TT. It doesn't need to mean you actually fall over, it could be a much more severe rocking of the mech's torso (think of what an Atlas does when you hit it with an AC/20), or, I don't know, they could actually use the fact that you can look around your cockpit and force the pilot's PoV to not be glued to the center piece of glass in the cockpit for a couple seconds.

There are cues that can be taken from flight simulators as well that could introduce difficulty under certain circumstances: think red-out and black-out. Things that aren't adding RNG onto where and how well you hit something, or forcing changes on a weapon's attributes, but that instead make it harder for the player, as a human, to accomplish exactly what they want without making it impossible.

Really all I'm trying to say is that, yes things like heat could still use some changes, but there are a huge number of ways to alter gameplay or penalize certain actions without introducing arbitrariness to the game's core mechanics.

I don't really have a lot of respect for the people who feel that the hyper-accurate arsenal we have right now is good for the game (i.e., that any change to the potential accuracy of a player is omfg RNG wankery). Currently, the crosshair is magic - it's not effected by movement, it AUTOMATICALLY adjusts non-centered weapons to converge on the target nearly-instantly, and with HSR, it's basically NEVER wrong - oh, and it tells you when you hit things.

This is not skill. It's automation. The game will not die if crosshair accuracy and weapon behavior becomes a mechanic to be managed, instead of an assumed right. PPC +Gauss Jetpackers (occasionally dubbed Halomechs) take advantage of the magic of perfect point-and-shoot weapon groupings - the guns dynamically adjust to the range and location of the target to hit right where you're pointing. It's not quake 2 any more, people. Mechs drop like flies out there right now. This is NOT ok, or even intended. If getting the right shot, the perfect Torso hit with multiple weapons, involves a little patience, or work - if maneuvering and jumping while twisting and zooming while firing is COSTLY, maybe we'll get a more methodical game back.

For me, the matches where I have the most fun, win or lose, are the ones where the teams are competing for position, taking the initiative and committing when advantageous - often with a 'main' battle that can last several minutes, each mech according to its advantages. Is ANYONE having prolonged toe-to-toes with PPC/Gauss fireteams? It's instakills far faster than we've ever seen. It's not a healthy state for the game. It's not fun for me personally, but more importantly, it bypasses one of the things that makes mechwarrior different from an FPS - pace. Dropping into a match, particularly an 8-man, is a commitment. Matches can be lengthy, and tense, and you get one life, that's it. It shouldn't have nearly the same pace as an old-school shooter, or a modern combat FPS. And yet if you get enough Burst-weaponry mechs in a match, it can be over in 4 minutes. Targeted mechs can round 1 wrong corner, and lose half or all their mech, in a blink. It feels...crude. It's the only word I've got, I apologize if it doesn't convey the right idea.

I know this is an old, exhausted discussion, but I just had to say it, again, in the best way I know how. And the crosshair worshipping crowd can ignore Shooter gaming post 1999 all they want, but a more measured game means giving up the magical accuracy systems. It's not your skill alone scoring those shots. The game is giving it to you, and I don't think it's a good thing.

[PappySmurf]

Roadbeer, on 27 April 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Wow... imagine if they hadn't doubled armor.

No, it's fine, have you tried torso twist?

WOW RoadKill you are ignorant PGI never doubled the armor they just changed the armor amount numbers to look like they did. And the OP is right Weapon damage far OVERPOWERS the armor. The armor values you see in mechlab are not real there inflated values to make you think PGI altered the armor amounts in truth I doubt PGI changed anything except make the weapons damages higher than normal. Its like Deja VU

[topgun505]

Oh yes. Double armor. To promote longer battles.

And yet here we are with lights and mediums getting ONE-SHOTTED and heavies being CT cracked in a single volley.

Roadbeer, on 27 April 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Wow... imagine if they hadn't doubled armor.

No, it's fine, have you tried torso twist?

[Galenit]

topgun505, on 31 May 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Oh yes. Double armor. To promote longer battles.

And yet here we are with lights and mediums getting ONE-SHOTTED and heavies being CT cracked in a single volley.

Double armor, but 3,3 times the damage (2,5 times after last patch) for a ppc, 2,5 times the damage for a ac20.
An ac2 does in tt 2 damage every 10 seconds, in mwo it does 40 damage in 10 seconds, as an extreme example. 20 times the damage against double armor?

We have double armor but we have 2,5 times the damage and more if we add the following things in the math ...

Not to mention that the heatbalancing is ******.
Overheating comes after double the shoots then in tt, you can have double the heatthreshold for your mech, thanks for the wrong implemented heatsinks and there are no heat penaltys, ....

Should we talk about always hitting the targeted spot or weapon instant convergence?

They need a whole new balancing of heat, recycle, damage, convergence, hitting on the move and armor or stick to the tt rules.

Edited by Galenit, 03 June 2013 - 06:58 AM.