206 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

One side-ways way to "nerf" PPCs would be to turn them into weapons with a beam duration. Even making it something short like 0.25 seconds would change a lot for PPC users, I think. I think there is a good reason why the pop-tarters prefer the combo PPC + Gauss, instead of Gauss + (ER) Large Laser.

Damage is too high on these fronts:
- short term damage. Single ALphas, enemy mechs coordinating alpha strikes
- Pin-Point Precision. A 60 damage alpha spreading its damage across two hit locations has a very different impact on the match then a 60 damage alpha to one location.

And it's too low on this front:
- Sustained Damage. Mechs overheat relatively fast and can't sustain their fire all that long.

[Zyllos]

jeffsw6, on 30 April 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

No. This would nerf brawling and medium-ranged combat which IMO are not nearly as broken as extreme-range sniping.

Also I think some people may not understand "weapon convergence." It's based on range. If you are sniping at an opponent 1050m away who is running toward you, it is only a tiny, relatively fast adjustment for your weapons to re-converge to 920m for your next shot -- that's if the enemy is running toward or away from you; if he is running sideways the range doesn't change at all.

On the other hand, if you are aiming at someone 30m away and need to re-focus on an opponent at 250m, that is a larger adjustment and will take longer. You will end up missing more enemies at 250m due to your proposed convergence nerf than you would at 920m. You will never get your weapons to converge on an enemy light mech who is circling you.

This is why I don't want to advocate a slower weapon convergence but just a completely different convergence system. The angular velocity needed up close is MUCH greater than what is needed at medium to infinite range.

Edited by Zyllos, 01 May 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[Ngamok]

AC, on 27 April 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

The thing that frustrates me is that if PGI thinks damage is too high, then they are not paying attention. I have said this numerous time, it is NOT the weapons. It is the mechs. Balance breaks when they release a new mech that can boat weapons. Remember back to closed beta? The only mech that got a lot of attention was the K2 Gausapult. Why? Because PGI has a terrible slot system that lets you put gauss where Machine guns should go. Streaks were broken because of the SplatCat, AC20 is broken because of the Jagger, PPC is broken because of the stalker. It is the mechs themselves that break balance, NOT the weapons. Fix the slot system on the mechs and weapons balance will be simplified and overall game balance will be much better off.

As stated before many times. Those mechs that boat X amount of weapons over a safe Y amount need to produce more heat. So when you put 6 ER PPCs in a Stalker, instead of 66 heat, you are producing a % more because of the penalty of having more than whatever Y amount the deemed safe.

Edit: Also, this would have to be a mech by mech consideration and / or probably a weapon one.

Edited by Ngamok, 01 May 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[Barghest Whelp]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 April 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Try spreading around 45 to 60 damage coming as one shot on any mech. That's the whole "trick" with all those alpha strike builds - that the damage is not "spreadable". You may be able to spread the second shot - but you just got one of your components severely softened up - it will be hit again, and even if you spread the damage from now on, that component can't deal with with the spreaded damage either.

Yes, but that's the whole difference between being able to take 5-6 shots without getting killed, and taking two shots before getting killed. In the mean time, your opponent should have shut down after two shots, and if he's still alive to get off another shot, you have failed.

Besides, I wonder what people are going to do once the clans arrive. You think 6 PPC's are bad? Wait until you get to experience 6 clan ERPPC's which do 15 damage a piece.

[KKillian]

I have to say I am a huge PPC fan, just the concept of the weapon has been one of my favorite things in battletech since I could read.. as much as I hate to say it they were fine before the heat reduction. I used them on many builds long before any heat changes and had to be quite careful but still VERY effective, usually never running more then 2 standard. I also have to disagree with my stalker being able to run 6 of them and do anything but chain fire. Since the overcharge option has been set as a toggle it is impossible to kill yourself with heat. Literally it is a suicide toggle. A hex stalker alpha should take HUGE damage internally if it alphas all 6 ppc's while it is over 40% heat, it currently can alpha 6 ER PPC at 99% heat and take 0 damage internally.

Sense this does not make. PPC simply need more heat, they were fine, the projectile speed is fine, damage is fine. I understand a lot of newbie players tend to die from melting themselves but that is part of the learning process, please reinstate heat damage without the player actually pushing a button that allows them to cause themselves damage.

This comes from a jump sniper, ppc's are crazy, they were already crazy but the tradeoff of heat vs possible missed damage wasnt worth it to many players. It should still be a tradeoff, if you miss, its a big problem.

Streaks definetly do not need more damage, they need the damage spread. The thing is not meant to be a the main source of output that it is currently being used for. Personally I wouldnt mind them removed entirely as the concept of a close range autoaim weapon in a fast paced shooter is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of, all it does is lower players ability to aim real weapons. Also the fact any locking missle payload vs dumbfire should be lower due to onboard tracking hardware but hey this isnt very realistic to begin with... LRMS at least have travel time and AMS affects them. But the center torso only crap has to go, no matter how you dodge or turn, the damn things hit front center.

I would MUCH rather get 1 shot smashed by a skilled pilot with a gauss/ppc/autocannon setup then streaked to death by a 3x2 pack commando that couldnt hit the side of a barn with a large laser.

Lasers seem fine, really happy with all of them overall including small pulse but I do agree vs the scale of all the other lasers they need 1 point of damage added based on their heat. Currently all the heat balance on lasers small 3dmg/2ht med 5/4 mpls 6/5 large 9/7 lpls 9/7.3 with small pulse being the only 1:1 (3/3) ratio thereby being the most inefficent laser existing. Delivery times seem to not affect the balance on any of the other lasers as they all vary from .75-1.0, spls being .5, its only advantage. Still, I love the things for driveby's and they sound great!

I still fear LRMS in all of my mechs, they hurt, but they do not core me in 1-2 salvos. I'm happy where they are, same with srms... ran into a few splatcats lately and while they are still a nightmare, they dont 1shot atlas anymore but still dish out the pain enough to be avoided. Two 4packs on my Jenny D still feel like they punch pretty hard also.

Ac20 jagers... well... it kinda is what it is, to be expected. I have one, its boring, my quad AC2 is wayyyy more fun trying to get my click timing perfect. If kids want to hold hands and drop multiple ac40 jagers together its gonna be rough for the other team but not impossible. Stay wary of these things and take them out priority they are usually pretty squishy and most put their ammo in their legs for whatever reason. Although I see no reason to nerf them, if they manage to sneak up on ya then hey more power to em... low ammo, low armor or speed, they have their drawbacks. People tend to forget that 2 ac20's is about 45% of the things overall tonnage just to carry the weapons alone, before ammo, which usually also means an XL!

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

it currently can alpha 6 ER PPC at 99% heat and take 0 damage internally.

Any idea how long the Shut down, restart cycle on that would be? 10-15 seconds? Longer?

[zraven7]

Damage is fine. Damage should be something feared, not a mild irritation.

[jeffsw6]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 May 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

One side-ways way to "nerf" PPCs would be to turn them into weapons with a beam duration. Even making it something short like 0.25 seconds would change a lot for PPC users, I think.

Eliminating PPCs from the game would be a shame. Giving them a 250ms beam-duration would help mechs who are already on the run by spreading damage across their sections, but it won't help someone who is moving straight toward/away from a jump-sniper, or who is stationary. You can't really get your mech moving in 250ms, and even if you could, it won't matter. The hit(s) have already registered on you before you know that you are being shot.

Because of energy-beam HSR, if your ping (round-trip time) is 100ms and the opponent's ping is 100ms, and assuming the server-induced latency is 0ms, there is 100ms of state travel time (unidirectional trip time) between the opponent hitting fire and your client knowing that you are receiving damage. That leaves you 150ms to start turning, change direction, or push w. You won't react fast enough to spread the damage. 150ms is literally the blink of an eye, and we're talking about two players with average pings here, not the shooting-player who is lagging and thus actually at an advantage with HSR. Even if you are a super-human with ultra-fast reflexes, your reaction has to travel to the shooting opponent, which is another 100ms unidirectional-trip-time, because the shooter is the one whose client decides what section the fire lands on. Now you are at 50ms of reaction time just to spread damage of a 250ms beam. Out of the 250ms beam you propose, 200ms worth lands before your reactions have any effect.

Once again, a suggestion that has not been thought through at all. Like every other "suggestion" on this forum. I've posted the only comprehensive set of balance changes that address the current meta-game problems, and you guys continue to go "oh this 1 thing will fix it." It won't.

MrZakalwe, on 30 April 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

But personally I think that would be a good start; lights and mediums are currently toast up close (run an AC40 Jaeger and since ballistic HSR went live I no longer have any problem legging them at all) and snipers are not that big a problem as far as I can tell; it's popups who will be having to converge during the jump (they will often be looking at a hill or the sky before hand so convergence will not be set right for their target) so this may help more than you think.

You would have to completely change the mechanism for weapon convergence. Even doing this would only modify the situation for jump-snipers, not the guys who stand on a hill under ECM and wait for their opponent to try to run from one covered position to the next.

Ngamok, on 01 May 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

As stated before many times. Those mechs that boat X amount of weapons over a safe Y amount need to produce more heat. So when you put 6 ER PPCs in a Stalker, instead of 66 heat, you are producing a % more because of the penalty of having more than whatever Y amount the deemed safe.

You have been wrong every time before. See below.

MaddMaxx, on 01 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Any idea how long the Shut down, restart cycle on that would be? 10-15 seconds? Longer?

It's a long, long time in a brawl and just a moment of boredom if you are 1200m from your opponent who can't shoot back at you, or have just fallen behind cover (jumpjets/hills.) That's why heat is not going to nerf sniping. Everyone who thinks it will is, frankly, stupid. See my weapon-specific adjustments, in the original post of this thread, which modify range, heat, and Gauss ammo to appropriately force sniping-mechs into a more dedicated role.

You know when heat matters? Brawling. That is the only situation where you can't just use cover while you cool off. My brawling Stalker alphas for 66 damage (90m range) but that takes me from minimum heat to almost 50% heat, and the mech is ineffective outside of 200m or so. I have to brawl in it because I don't have any long-range weaponry. I have the most heat-efficient weapons I can get: 2 LPL, 4 SL, 3 SRM6. SRM6s spread out around the chassis, consume ammo, and are easy to miss with; and SLs are useless beyond 90m (but do 1.5dmg/heat.)

In a really good match on my brawling stalker, which means not Alpine, Tourmaline, and usually not Forest Colony, because these are very PPC/Gauss-heavy maps in the current meta; I might get 2 or 3 kills and break 500 dmg. On a lot of matches, I have to wait to see which team's snipers kill the other team's idiots first, and then try to clean up the left-overs. I don't have ECM or a 1000m weapon that does huge damage to a single component.

I'm not sure a 66dmg alpha brawler is a healthy thing to have in the game, either; but I'm not killing any enemies who never have a chance to shoot back at me. That is what's wrong with extreme-range sniping. No one fears the STK brawler or the 9 ML Hunchback right now because they are ******* orange by the time they reach you. Know how often I survive a round in my Stalker without having lost an arm or torso? Almost never. The opponents I'm fighting have a chance to shoot back, and they do. Sure, I can usually beat an Atlas or almost any other mech in a brawl; but not at no cost to my own combat-effectiveness.

Edited by jeffsw6, 01 May 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Barghest Whelp]

KKillian, on 01 May 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

I have to say I am a huge PPC fan, just the concept of the weapon has been one of my favorite things in battletech since I could read.. as much as I hate to say it they were fine before the heat reduction. I used them on many builds long before any heat changes and had to be quite careful but still VERY effective, usually never running more then 2 standard. I also have to disagree with my stalker being able to run 6 of them and do anything but chain fire. Since the overcharge option has been set as a toggle it is impossible to kill yourself with heat. Literally it is a suicide toggle. A hex stalker alpha should take HUGE damage internally if it alphas all 6 ppc's while it is over 40% heat, it currently can alpha 6 ER PPC at 99% heat and take 0 damage internally.

Sense this does not make. PPC simply need more heat, they were fine, the projectile speed is fine, damage is fine. I understand a lot of newbie players tend to die from melting themselves but that is part of the learning process, please reinstate heat damage without the player actually pushing a button that allows them to cause themselves damage.

This comes from a jump sniper, ppc's are crazy, they were already crazy but the tradeoff of heat vs possible missed damage wasnt worth it to many players. It should still be a tradeoff, if you miss, its a big problem.

Streaks definetly do not need more damage, they need the damage spread. The thing is not meant to be a the main source of output that it is currently being used for. Personally I wouldnt mind them removed entirely as the concept of a close range autoaim weapon in a fast paced shooter is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of, all it does is lower players ability to aim real weapons. Also the fact any locking missle payload vs dumbfire should be lower due to onboard tracking hardware but hey this isnt very realistic to begin with... LRMS at least have travel time and AMS affects them. But the center torso only crap has to go, no matter how you dodge or turn, the damn things hit front center.

I would MUCH rather get 1 shot smashed by a skilled pilot with a gauss/ppc/autocannon setup then streaked to death by a 3x2 pack commando that couldnt hit the side of a barn with a large laser.

Lasers seem fine, really happy with all of them overall including small pulse but I do agree vs the scale of all the other lasers they need 1 point of damage added based on their heat. Currently all the heat balance on lasers small 3dmg/2ht med 5/4 mpls 6/5 large 9/7 lpls 9/7.3 with small pulse being the only 1:1 (3/3) ratio thereby being the most inefficent laser existing. Delivery times seem to not affect the balance on any of the other lasers as they all vary from .75-1.0, spls being .5, its only advantage. Still, I love the things for driveby's and they sound great!

I still fear LRMS in all of my mechs, they hurt, but they do not core me in 1-2 salvos. I'm happy where they are, same with srms... ran into a few splatcats lately and while they are still a nightmare, they dont 1shot atlas anymore but still dish out the pain enough to be avoided. Two 4packs on my Jenny D still feel like they punch pretty hard also.

Ac20 jagers... well... it kinda is what it is, to be expected. I have one, its boring, my quad AC2 is wayyyy more fun trying to get my click timing perfect. If kids want to hold hands and drop multiple ac40 jagers together its gonna be rough for the other team but not impossible. Stay wary of these things and take them out priority they are usually pretty squishy and most put their ammo in their legs for whatever reason. Although I see no reason to nerf them, if they manage to sneak up on ya then hey more power to em... low ammo, low armor or speed, they have their drawbacks. People tend to forget that 2 ac20's is about 45% of the things overall tonnage just to carry the weapons alone, before ammo, which usually also means an XL!

You know, it's funny you should mention it, because I used to field a 4 PPC K2 way back before they increased the projectile speed of the PPC. In fact, that's how I got all the elites on my K2. So yeah, they were totally viable back then. And this was before HSR, before netcode improvements, AND before the projectile speed was increased.

I was able to snipe with them back then. In fact, I was able to take out the dreaded dual gauss K2's with my build. Was it easy? No. Did I need to be careful? Yes.

In fact, that's why I don't really use PPC's anymore. I feel there's not much challange in using them. Then again, I'm much happier with PPC's being the easy mode weapon than the LRM. I used to hate LRM's with a passion. Now they're just useless, which I'm quite happy with.

[Davers]

Barghest Whelp, on 01 May 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

In fact, that's why I don't really use PPC's anymore. I feel there's not much challange in using them. Then again, I'm much happier with PPC's being the easy mode weapon than the LRM. I used to hate LRM's with a passion. Now they're just useless, which I'm quite happy with.

The second most common weapon in BT behind medium lasers is useless, and that makes you happy? How is having a whole class of weapons useless good for game balance?

[Barghest Whelp]

Davers, on 01 May 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

The second most common weapon in BT behind medium lasers is useless, and that makes you happy? How is having a whole class of weapons useless good for game balance?

I didn't say it's good, but increasing the damage back to the levels it had before the nerf wouldn't be good either. I just feel that the way they implemented LRM's is really lousy. I dunno, they just felt... different in MW3. I actually liked using them in MW3. In MWO, they just feel... wrong.

Don't just stand there PGI, do something!

But yeah, I'm a selfish poo poo. So I'm not gonna campaign for a LRM boost. I just want to be able to choose map size , and I want MG's to be a viable weapon.

EDIT: seriously, the filter. It has issues man. That's totally not offensive. It's like saying poo poo. You don't smack your kids when they say poo poo. If they use the F word you can feel free to give them the old dragon kick, but some words are actually ok.

Edited by Barghest Whelp, 01 May 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[Davers]

Barghest Whelp, on 01 May 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

I didn't say it's good, but increasing the damage back to the levels it had before the nerf wouldn't be good either. I just feel that the way they implemented LRM's is really lousy. I dunno, they just felt... different in MW3. I actually liked using them in MW3. In MWO, they just feel... wrong.

Don't just stand there PGI, do something!

But yeah, I'm a selfish poo poo. So I'm not gonna campaign for a LRM boost. I just want to be able to choose map size , and I want MG's to be a viable weapon.

EDIT: seriously, the filter. It has issues man. That's totally not offensive. It's like saying poo poo. You don't smack your kids when they say poo poo. If they use the F word you can feel free to give them the old dragon kick, but some words are actually ok.

The problem with LRMs, and it still in game, is that they home in on the CT. It's just not as lethal with the reduced damage.

Edited by Davers, 01 May 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Barghest Whelp]

Davers, on 01 May 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

The problem with LRMs, and it still in game, is that they home in on the CT. It's just not as lethal with the reduced damage.

Yeah, I know about that one. But that's not really what I'm talking about. It's how they fly. It's all messed up and wrong.

I would rather that they do low damage as they currently do, but fly much faster and more direct, so that you don't need quite as much cover to escape, but you need to get to cover a lot faster. Right now, you can pretty much invalidate cover if yoyu can get to high enough ground, and that's just daft.

Every other weapon has the "break LOS" counter, but not LRM's? That just makes them OP if they deal damage on par with other weapons. They should only be able to deal indirect damage if the target is being tagged with a TAG by a team mate.

[Davers]

Barghest Whelp, on 01 May 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Yeah, I know about that one. But that's not really what I'm talking about. It's how they fly. It's all messed up and wrong.

I would rather that they do low damage as they currently do, but fly much faster and more direct, so that you don't need quite as much cover to escape, but you need to get to cover a lot faster. Right now, you can pretty much invalidate cover if yoyu can get to high enough ground, and that's just daft.

Every other weapon has the "break LOS" counter, but not LRM's? That just makes them OP if they deal damage on par with other weapons. They should only be able to deal indirect damage if the target is being tagged with a TAG by a team mate.

It would have been a good way to implement them, but that is pretty much how Clan LRMs work.

[MWHawke]

MrZakalwe, on 30 April 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Good point, well made.

But personally I think that would be a good start; lights and mediums are currently toast up close (run an AC40 Jaeger and since ballistic HSR went live I no longer have any problem legging them at all)

Light Mech pilots who brawl with heavier weight types are just using their Mechs wrong.

[jeffsw6]

Davers, on 01 May 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

The problem with LRMs, and it still in game, is that they home in on the CT. It's just not as lethal with the reduced damage.

I have previously advocated reducing the ammo/ton of LRM. I don't think that would be appropriate with their current damage, but it might be worth considering in the future.

The real tough thing with LRM boating is just that, LRM boating. An LRM boat should be basically deadly if you are caught in the open, and it should be annoying and force you to use cover. My LRM boat fires 70 at a time and still moves around with the assault group, has a few back-up lasers, and can take a beating. That build shouldn't be able to one-shot anything except maybe a light. If missiles are buffed too much, it will be OP.

On the other hand, an LRM10 should still make you want to use cover. How do you balance that? Ammo. Take away the LRM boat's ability to carry so much ammunition that it can spray and pray and yet STILL carry back-up lasers.

MWHawke, on 01 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Light Mech pilots who brawl with heavier weight types are just using their Mechs wrong.

Well, unless their speed / maneuverability / skill advantage is so great that they win; or they have a numbers advantage. In that case, they are doing it right.

Edited by jeffsw6, 01 May 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Glythe]

Damage isn't too high....

the ease of boating is too tempting and ruins every other conceivable build.

Prevent boating outright saying you can't have more of 2 than 1 weapon on a mech (no more than 4 of 1 specific kind of laser and other very specific measures).

Furthermore..... prevent boating even more with a heat penalty when people use the "limit" of boating weapons. Example: If you fire two PPCs together give them the heat penalty of the old PPCs.


Prevent boating and you restore balance to the game.

[jeffsw6]

Glythe, on 01 May 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Prevent boating outright saying you can't have more of 2 than 1 weapon on a mech (no more than 4 of 1 specific kind of laser and other very specific measures).

No more than 4 Medium Lasers? This wouldn't cripple the game, but nobody is crying about ML-boating. The 9xML Hunchback is a deadly alpha-machine, but not so deadly that the forums are on fire about it. And it's a brawler .. no one is complaining about over-powered brawlers right now.

Glythe, on 01 May 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Furthermore..... prevent boating even more with a heat penalty when people use the "limit" of boating weapons. Example: If you fire two PPCs together give them the heat penalty of the old PPCs.

Glythe, on 01 May 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Prevent boating and you restore balance to the game.

So instead of carrying 4 PPCs, they carry 2 PPC and 2 ERPPC; or 2 PPC and 2 Gauss Rifles. Your suggestion is not going to solve anything.

Look at the LRM-boat case. I have LRM70 on a Stalker. 4xLRM15, 1xLRM10 (33 tons), and it still has room for some lasers and 7 tons ammo. If you don't let me have 4xLRM15 I will just install 1xLRM20 2xLRM15 2xLRM10 (34 tons.) Same thing with SRM catapults, stalkers, awesomes, blablah.

Boating itself is not broken. It limits the role of your mech. What's broken is that the sniper weapons are not as role-limited as they should be. They have too broad an effective range (short and long), too little heat (so they are still basically useful at brawling), and Gauss Rifle ammo is so many shots/ton that you can spray and pray.


Your "boating is the problem" argument has been made time and time again. It has always been wrong. The weapons and ammunition is what is broken. Fix that and mechs will either pigeon-hole themselves into a specific role (which is fine) or they will use a wider variety of weapons.

Again, see the comprehensive suggestions in my original post.

[Anjian]

My suggestion is to lower the firing rate of all weapons across the board by 1/3rd. That's going to slow down and make you aim that alpha shot carefully, or go with a controlled chain fire even more. The extra time before firing shots can let you aim and think a bit more. On the system side, it may reduce load, especially with 12v12.

[MustrumRidcully]

Barghest Whelp, on 01 May 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Yes, but that's the whole difference between being able to take 5-6 shots without getting killed, and taking two shots before getting killed. In the mean time, your opponent should have shut down after two shots, and if he's still alive to get off another shot, you have failed.

Besides, I wonder what people are going to do once the clans arrive. You think 6 PPC's are bad? Wait until you get to experience 6 clan ERPPC's which do 15 damage a piece.

6 ER PPCs probably still produce too much heat, even for M:WO's heat capacity (assuming Clan ER PPC will indeed be carbon copies of IS ER PPCs, just 1 ton and 1 crit less and 5 damage more, 6 ER PPCs produce 72 heat, that would require 25 DHS with the current mechanics)... But 4 ER PPCs are doable, and deliver the damage 6 PPCs currently deliver, with 8 crit slots and 16 tons less. You could install 2 SSRM6s alongside those 4 ER PPCs so you're prepared to **** anything regardless of range.

The game will probably die if PGI hasn't an answer to these issues by then.