32 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Lots of talk about PPcs and Gauss these days. People want to raise the heat, add JJ 'shake', and slow down the PPC's velocity.

Do we want to have effective long range builds? Should it be very difficult to engage anyone over 540m? Would everyone be happier if we went back to all medium lasers and SRMs?

[Divine Madcat]

No, what we want is a balance, where both long range combat and short range brawling are possibility. Right now, when even every light is packing a PPC or two, it should say there is a problem.

[Teralitha]

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

[Davers]

Divine Madcat, on 28 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

No, what we want is a balance, where both long range combat and short range brawling are possibility. Right now, when even every light is packing a PPC or two, it should say there is a problem.

But what is the best way to balance a weapon that is useful at all ranges with weapons that are only good at 1/4 of it's range?

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

Not an option. Sorry. Unless you only want the Clans to have DHS, and theirs are better.

[Tennex]

of course we want long range weapons those are 1/3 and arguably more of the game's weapon sysesms

i think the PPCs are a nice switch of pace from bralwer meta and the LRMmeta.


but it could use a very slight nerf.

Edited by Tennex, 28 April 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Yes we do. But right now long range combat is the only consistantly effective form of combat, which is the reason the game sucks right now.

[Nauht]

What's PGI to do?

Early on we complained that the ppc was severely lacking. We told them to increase its velocity, we cried for months for them to implement EMP disruption, we whined ever since the game was in early beta for them to tweak the heat. We asked ppcs to be on par with the GR. Some even suggested they be made hitscan to increase their hit (only cos they couldn't aim with them).

We got everything we asked for.

Oh and I'm surprised that founders are complaining about ppcs - they of all ppl should remember the evolution of the weapon from CB days. Unless ofc they joined right at the end of the founders program.

[Davers]

PPCs are the best energy weapon in the game. Mostly because the don't spread their damage. If they were hotter I don't think it would make a big difference. Maybe there would be more 5 PPC Stalkers?

The point is if there is an effective sniping weapon, it will be boated. Just like SRMs were an effective brawling weapon (somewhat due to bugs) and every mech that could loaded up on them.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 28 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Yes we do. But right now long range combat is the only consistantly effective form of combat, which is the reason the game sucks right now.

Are you saying that AC/20 Jagers don't do well at the moment? I would have to disagree.

[GhostEel]

The answer to this question of possibility and balance, although you may not want to hear it, is skill.
(And, also, I must disagree that long range combat is the only consistently effective form of combat in the game. It helps to win, but beyond that I am not convinced that its overwhelming presence is more than a phase in the development of this game.)

Yes: there should be long range weapons and comprehensive long range load outs in the game.
Yes: close range brawling is a lot of fun.
Yes: the presence of ECM creates many more ways to be destroyed at the hands of an enemy team.

But know how to navigate the terrain; know how much heat your weapons produce and how they impart dmg; know what ranges are best for your 'mech to operate at ..... and you'll have good battles! If you take victory for granted because you can Alpha-strike, then this isn't a game that I'll want to play with you, anyway.

I haven't found many flaws with the t.t. game, and if PGI continues to adhere to the spirit of it then we'll have a game I honestly feel that virtually anyone can have fun playing.

Edited by NooTreeno, 28 April 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Davers, on 28 April 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

PPCs are the best energy weapon in the game. Mostly because the don't spread their damage. If they were hotter I don't think it would make a big difference. Maybe there would be more 5 PPC Stalkers?

The point is if there is an effective sniping weapon, it will be boated. Just like SRMs were an effective brawling weapon (somewhat due to bugs) and every mech that could loaded up on them.


Are you saying that AC/20 Jagers don't do well at the moment? I would have to disagree.

Whoa 1 kind of Ballistic mech, Big deal. PPCs are too good. Boating big guns is too good. Thats the problem.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 28 April 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[BLeeD]

Let me start by saying i do have 2 poptart builds and can use them well, but personally i had a lot more fun with this game in closed beta, fast hard hitting mechs with some great 8 man brawls. Hope to continue to have fun with the game but not playing as much as used to.

[Davers]

What mech do you pilot that you say is ineffective?

Edited for spelling.

Edited by Davers, 28 April 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[Davers]

Divine Madcat, on 28 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

No, what we want is a balance, where both long range combat and short range brawling are possibility. Right now, when even every light is packing a PPC or two, it should say there is a problem.

The more effective long range combat is then the weaker short range combat will be. The better guns got, the less reason to carry bayonets. If I can effectively hit you at long range (by effective I mean either take you out, or do significant damage such as take out a side torso) to be equal you have to be able to hit me with a bazooka at close range. Being able to deal the same damage isn't enough, since the long range combatant would still be superior.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Davers, on 28 April 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

The more effective long range combat is then the weaker short range combat will be. The better guns got, the less reason to carry bayonets. If I can effectively hit you at long range (by effective I mean either take you out, or do significant damage such as take out a side torso) to be equal you have to be able to hit me with a bazooka at close range. Being able to deal the same damage isn't enough, since the long range combatant would still be superior.

I really don't know what you're trying to say in this thread. The Big Guns are not balanced at this time. PPCs are too good, so is stacking big guns together. No one likes being killed in 3 shots. The game isnt balanced, with Gauss/PPC/AC20 being the best way to play the game and get kills. Theres no one arguing this. PGI is going to hotfix it, it isnt going to stay like this, and thank god, because the game is currently boring and generally ******* horrible.

The only people who like the current meta game are people who abuse the blatantly broken mechanics.

And thats basically /thread.

[Davers]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 28 April 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

I really don't know what you're trying to say in this thread. The Big Guns are not balanced at this time. PPCs are too good, so is stacking big guns together. No one likes being killed in 3 shots. The game isnt balanced, with Gauss/PPC/AC20 being the best way to play the game and get kills. Theres no one arguing this. PGI is going to hotfix it, it isnt going to stay like this, and thank god, because the game is currently boring and generally ******* horrible.

The only people who like the current meta game are people who abuse the blatantly broken mechanics.

And thats basically /thread.

What I am SAYING is that you cannot have both equally effective long range and short range builds because the long range one will always be superior.

Unless PGI changes the entire core gameplay Gauss/PPC/AC/20 will ALWAYS be the best way to play and get kills.

What I am ASKING, is what is YOUR preferred way to get kills? If it isn't PPC/Gauss/AC/20, then what should be the best way? Because you can't have medium lasers being just as good as PPCs. You have to decide, do we want effective long range weapons or not?

[Purplefluffybunny]

I would love to see effective long range combat. However, just to specify what I think that should entail; more effective tags and narcs to facilitate proper scouting and sighting role for light mechs. There needs to be more synergy between the different mech classes, roles and chassis.

[Stargoat]

Teralitha, on 28 April 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

keep beating that drum, no-one cares or takes you seriously. Just think about what you're advocating.

[No7]

People need to stop screaming just because a little detail doesn't suit them.

Of course we want long range combat.
We also want close range and mid range. (and 540 meters for me is mid range)
And we want a balanced game where all ranges makes sense.

It will take time and a healthy discussion about it is good.
But mostly on this forum it is more like:

1 "I am not good at this game and I want to be good in my close range mech"
2 "So, what I want is for the game to change so I can be good"
3 "So, the change needed is for everything else to be useless"
4 "So, let's get rid of this crap where you can engage enemies over 280 meters"

[MustrumRidcully]

Davers, on 28 April 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Lots of talk about PPcs and Gauss these days. People want to raise the heat, add JJ 'shake', and slow down the PPC's velocity.

Do we want to have effective long range builds? Should it be very difficult to engage anyone over 540m? Would everyone be happier if we went back to all medium lasers and SRMs?

Effective, yes, but balanced against brawling. Brawlers getting up close, circumventing the firing lines of snipers, should beat up snipers with superior damage output at close range. Brawlers moving through the firing lines should be shot up and defeated by snipers.

[Lightfoot]

Long Range combat is harder and harder for newer players, but you learn.

Right now, long range effectiveness vs short range is correct. Long range beats short range on open maps and short range easily beats long range in cities, tunnels, anywhere you can force a short range battle really. Compared to previous MechWarrior games MWO has more powerful short range weapons now.

MechWarrior is a Map Based Tactical Game. The mechanics of the weapons revolve around that result. It keeps gameplay dynamically changing based on map terrain. MechWarrior challenges you to adapt to the demands of each map. That is the goal of MechWarrior game balancing.

The danger right now is that rather than learn long range skills players just cry NERF!!! Hopefully the Devs ignore this. Because, right now, MWO has found a balancing point between long and short range. Short range is much more effective at short range. Long range is much more effective at long range. If long range gets nerfed by much at all, players would again be able to bring AC20's and Medium Lasers to any map and easily win. In fact I still get beat by AC20s on Tourmaline by players who come through the canyons, so the balancing is very close to perfect right now.

All that is really needed is the ability to know the Map choice before leaving Mechlab. Till then I just bring some Long and some Short Range weapons, which is what TT Battletech Mechs are set up as. More evidence of perfect balance.

Jump Jetting is a seperate issue. It is a game quirk that's been in use for 12 or more years. Balancing weapons around a quirky sub-issue will get you nowhere. Jump-Jet shake won't effect it, Recoil won't effect it. Reason is that Jump-Jetters take the shot on the way down and it's a very easy shot to make if the target mech is standing still. (tip: Since the JJetter is relying on a vertical cone of fire, moving laterally will reduce accuracy by 50% or more.)

The only thing I can think of that would make pop-tarting more difficult would be to make Jump Jets always impel the Mech forward 10 meters or so. This way the JJetter would land in a different spot after each shot. That's a powerful Nerf though so consider well.