94 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

That's right. Per another post I made:

Quote

No amount of damage tweaking will solve the convergence problems we have in MWO. Funny thing, I went back and played MW 3 and lo and behold, 3x ERPPC + Gauss murders things even in it due to convergence. The only difference is I can alpha just once per 10 seconds. If I alpha a second time after the first... kaboooom! I overheat. Unfortunately MW3 doesn't have regular PPCs in it.

Convergence is and has been the issue all the way back to Mechwarrior 3 when it was introduced. It has plagued the series ever since and right now, this moment, this patch, we are experiencing the culmination of it all. SniperWarrior is convergence being used to the greatest potential.

Now, some have proposed stuff like... Cone of Fire. The problem with Cone of Fire is that it is both dumb and random. Random is bad. See, I've competed in Team Fortress 2 for the last five years and there was a time when the Scout's Scattergun had a random shot pattern. Guess what? It was patched out eventually for league play so every shot had the same pattern to keep things fair. Cone of Fire can't work in a sim/game like this.

However, stuff like convergence illustrated here:

You see, the Arms converge while the torso weapons don't. Boom! Huge problem solved immediately! Well, partially. Some mechs still let you boat stuff in the arms and this is precisely what might occur. Well, we can always blow those arms off, right? Yeah.

We could allow fixed convergence at a fixed range for torso weapons--that'd be adjustable in the mechlab and also require skill.

See, the reason we're seeing stuff cored so fast is pinpoint damage in a single torso section. Reduce the damage or change it--you still have pinpoint damage in one weapon or another. We'll constantly be tweaking weapons forever!

Fix convergence... well, then a lot of the mess goes away. Fixing heat is another issue entirely but could be used also.

Lastly (as I'm being very brief here), adding a 3x3 grid to the torso instead of just 3 sections... well, you now have 9 spots to hit versus 3. Accuracy will play an even bigger role than ever before and those sacred XL engines... Just a tiny, tiny little box in the top corner. To blow off left or right, well, you gotta take out a minimum of 2 squares. In a way, taking out all 3 would be better. The downside to this, though, would be people trying to core right away but, well, with convergence addressed... things will take a bit longer without adding more armor or tweaking damage values.

Yes, BT nuts will hate this. Yes, easymode FOTM people will hate it too. I, on the other hand, like it as I've always wanted skill to play even more of a factor than ever before in Mechwarrior. Not to mention it is also a bit more realistic...



The funny thing is I made threads about this back in Closed Beta. Did the developers say anything? Nope. They've ignored the real problem long enough. It is high time we make their ears bleed until they fix it. I'd rather they do this than the player base shrinking past the point of no return.

[Tennex]

Lol +1 for megatron.

The idea isnt so good though.

[Nastyogre]

The idea IS good. It is the solution to Alpha Strike Warrior. The problem with this game is the fact that you can pinpoint target with weapons that in no way should be able to do so.

I could even see some kind of variable convergence points that you could set and switch to in game. A Short, Med and Long Range point so you would know you would be on or very close at 150 300 and 450 M with a LL.

The game goes to a DPS game and a salvo shooting game which is exactly what it should be. Not about lining up one shot to core or headcap your opponent.

Frankly the other solution to Alpha warrior is implementing the Tabletop heat scale. Slow down weapons, twists, accuracy (make the weapons misfire perhaps) and multiple threshholds for ammo explosions.
Make the heat scale decrease at a reasonable rate so that if you take the heat to 30, you are shut down and most mechs are looking at 1-2 minutes of shutdown to cool.

This consecutive alpha-striking of no skill ends with a logical convergence and a realistic heat scale.

[Chemie]

just put PPC back to original projectile speed.

[Vorkoz]

Make it so that if you just point your reticle at an enemy then there'll be some scatter with points of impact spread randomly around some cone. Just doing this would make sniping impossible which is too much, so let's make it so that you can go into "snipe-mode" where your weapons will converge more precisely. Entering the mode takes a few secs and staying in "snipe-mode" forces you to move either not at all or very little and no jumping. Thus sniping still has it's place and is possible just no jumping AWP dudes.

[Mike Getsome]

Great thread, OP. But that would make the game hard for noobs. And don't forget they are adding 3rd person view also (speaking of how dumb-friendly they want their game to be)...

Edited by Mike Getsome, 29 April 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Sable Dove]

As I recall (I can never find the specific post when I'm looking for it), Ballistics aren't supposed to converge unless they're in the arms. It's a bug. Hopefully this includes PPCs.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Or we can do Hardpoint sizes

[WardenWolf]

Combination of this convergence thing (which also gives arm mounted weapons more benefit, in trade for their more dangerous positioning) plus hardpoint sizes plus heat cap reduction or adding heat effects plus changing the UAC mechanic would fix almost all the balance in this game - ECM changes would be icing on the cake, but don't seem to be in the pipe.

However, the problem is that we are do far into the game now that a lot of those things probably can't be changed without massive whining. Hardpoint sizes would break builds (as it should, but people have been spoiled with them for too long). Heat effects would cause people to freak out in-game, and make the learning curve worse for new players. UAC could still be fixed, and isn't too bad currently (will be once we have Clan tech, though).

I suppose convergence is one thing that could reasonably still be changed, but I'm not sure of the effects in coding or how it would be shown on the HUD. Would you have maybe a central reticle that would be the general area you are aiming, with little dots of different colors to show where each weapon would actually hit? Or would there be no way to tell exactly where each shot would land? Both would increase learning curve badly, but I think it would also upset a lot of existing players if they could no longer be sure where their shots would land.

[Karr285]

http://mwomercs.com/...-5-mech-warfare

is all I have to post, they HAD convergence in the game (pinpoint, now useless, is the proof) and then took it out. it was to be their anti poptart/building hug system.

Edited by Karr285, 29 April 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[WardenWolf]

Karr285, on 29 April 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...-5-mech-warfare

is all I have to post, they HAD convergence in the game (pinpoint, now useless, is the proof) and then took it out. it was to be their anti poptart/building hug system.

I'm not sure I follow, Karr (hi, by the way!).

What the Devs describe there is what we have now: weapons that can converge on a single point, even if in fixed torso mounting. That is what allows some part of the precision we see in sniper builds, and while it takes a split second for convergence to change (longer on arm-mounted weapons) it still is fast enough for the pop-tart builds which are all the rage currently.

What the OP is proposing is that the torso weapons *not* converge - that they fire straight ahead instead. This would help with some things, like the Gauss Rifles on a Gausscat K2: they would hit a couple meters apart, making it harder to concentrate all 30 damage into a single armor section.

The more I think about it, though, it won't help with some other things: the 3 PPCs that can all be mounted in a single beam location on one of the Highlanders, for example. They would need to have three physical firing spots in the torso in order for this to help with such situations, which will probably just be another point for the Devs in favor of keeping things the way they are now :/

[Nauht]

Why are we using old WW1/WW2 ideas of calibrating weapon convergence in the hangar?

I think of it as torso mounted weapons on gimbals or some type of rack that can make fine adjustments to fire where you want. I mean the HUD already displays the range where you're pointing your xhairs. The mech computer just automatically adjusts for range there.

Someone had the good idea of making a reticle for each arm and torso and that those reticles sway and move while you walk/get shot. This will make aiming harder unless you're a stable gun platform, ie standing still. Something like the Arma aiming system where the crosshairs get larger while you're moving to account for movement inaccuracy and gets smaller and more precise as you stand, crouch or go prone.

[Karr285]

For instance, if you were facing a building, while taking cover right up against it, your convergence would adjust to hit just a short distance in front of you (the distance to the building). When you step out from around that building and fire on an enemy in the distance, your convergence point would automatically begin to adjust, but not instantly. If you shoot too soon, your first shots may converge and cross a short distance in front of you and completely miss the enemy as they pass on either side of him

that was the quote from David on what they used to have in the game. It has been removed for Instant convergence making Pinpoint a Filler Skill with 0 use.

[Nauht]

Karr285, on 29 April 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

For instance, if you were facing a building, while taking cover right up against it, your convergence would adjust to hit just a short distance in front of you (the distance to the building). When you step out from around that building and fire on an enemy in the distance, your convergence point would automatically begin to adjust, but not instantly. If you shoot too soon, your first shots may converge and cross a short distance in front of you and completely miss the enemy as they pass on either side of him

that was the quote from David on what they used to have in the game. It has been removed for Instant convergence making Pinpoint a Filler Skill with 0 use.

The problem iirc was that if you had that building or mountain in your close fov (zoomed or not) and you were firing at a distant target the shots would get confused and go widely to the upper corners.
I think that's why they removed that and made it instant pinpoint. But yeah, something needs to be done. It's make the game much more skill based as well as much more immersive.

[Baddicus Wolf]

I completely agree with the convergence idea, but not so much on the chest grid idea.

If we can get a small spread on the hits from an alpha, people won't get cored so fast, yet a lot of skill can compensate when firing with this setup.

[Karr285]

Nauht, on 29 April 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

The problem iirc was that if you had that building or mountain in your close fov (zoomed or not) and you were firing at a distant target the shots would get confused and go widely to the upper corners.
I think that's why they removed that and made it instant pinpoint. But yeah, something needs to be done. It's make the game much more skill based as well as much more immersive.

Maybe they should have made it just the reticule or get a better programer who can make it work, cuz the rangefinder works so I cant see how they couldnt get it to work, if range changes then do convergence change else do nothing. I know its not that simple but cmon.. if the range finder works I cant see this not

This was their ANTI pop-tart solution... now its gone and gets the Working as intended stamp from PGI

Edited by Karr285, 29 April 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Nauht, on 29 April 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I think of it as torso mounted weapons on gimbals or some type of rack that can make fine adjustments to fire where you want. I mean the HUD already displays the range where you're pointing your xhairs. The mech computer just automatically adjusts for range there.

Well, about the only weapons that could be on gimbals within the torso are lasers--through a system of mirrors which... would get hot and be prone to failure. (the motors that turn them)

Autocannons, Gauss, PPCs--all practically impossible to have on gimbals from inside due to geometry constraints (there would be severe limitations to how much they could move... Remember, you aren't tilting a point, you're tilting the ENTIRE weapon system from within) plus... armor constraints. Think about it--the armor on the outside of the torso is fixed. The minute you start having movable weapons you then have a weakness in armor. A "*****." This armor wouldn't be as strong as regular armor and would make the weapons far more prone to being damaged and the torso itself weaker and more prone to being penetrated from certain angles.

This is why the only other solution for torso weapons would be fixed alignment as the entire armor plating would need to be removed and adapted for the new position of the weapons.

[Taemien]

Mister Blastman, on 29 April 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well, about the only weapons that could be on gimbals within the torso are lasers--through a system of mirrors which... would get hot and be prone to failure. (the motors that turn them)

Autocannons, Gauss, PPCs--all practically impossible to have on gimbals from inside due to geometry constraints (there would be severe limitations to how much they could move... Remember, you aren't tilting a point, you're tilting the ENTIRE weapon system from within) plus... armor constraints. Think about it--the armor on the outside of the torso is fixed. The minute you start having movable weapons you then have a weakness in armor. A "*****." This armor wouldn't be as strong as regular armor and would make the weapons far more prone to being damaged and the torso itself weaker and more prone to being penetrated from certain angles.

This is why the only other solution for torso weapons would be fixed alignment as the entire armor plating would need to be removed and adapted for the new position of the weapons.

This is actually represented in TT, via through armor criticals. So yeah in lore it is viable to have weapons move within a location. Its also why weapons take critical space. Its why FF armor and ES internals take up 14 crits each. They interfere with weapon movement.

Though in reality, the convergence of torso weapons is limited, if you notice the torso weapons are FIXED to the center of the screen.

I don't really see an issue in how weapons aim and fire as they do now. The weapons shoot at whatever the reticle is pointing at and strike what ever is there when the round/bolt/blast hits when it gets there. I think it should stay this way.

If damage is too high, they can simply double the internal damage a mech can take. This will serve two purposes. 1. It will make combat last longer. 2. It will make crit seeking weapons more viable and give them more wiggle room to adjust them.

I think we simply need to be realistic here. Convergence and Cone of Fire are things that would change how MechWarrior plays in ways we cannot predict. And I don't believe it would be for the better. The only weapons that would be affected would be non-lasers. We don't need another MW3 where Lasers were the only weapons used in competitive play.

There is other ways to adjust weapons so they are less likely to be used how they are now. Heat, Damage, Speed, and Cooldown can all be used.

[Mister Blastman]

Taemien, on 29 April 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

I think we simply need to be realistic here. Convergence and Cone of Fire are things that would change how MechWarrior plays in ways we cannot predict. And I don't believe it would be for the better. The only weapons that would be affected would be non-lasers. We don't need another MW3 where Lasers were the only weapons used in competitive play.

You didn't play much MW3 competitively, did you?

Along with lasers (striders and shadowcats), UAC 20s were used heavily (knockdown abuse) to exploit further. The main reason no other weapons were used was lag. Lag was terrible in MW 3... it was worse than MW 2 online for lag.

Now, take a 3 PPC + 1 Gauss in instant action within MW 3 and it... murders things. They just die miserably. Part of it is the bad AI but the other is convergence.

Changing damage only hides the problem.

Convergence has been an issue since MW 3. Prior to it, it wasn't an issue because convergence just well, wasn't. We had some convergence but it was rather limited and not perfect.

This game shouldn't be pinpoint warrior from afar. It made small laser boating in MW 3 so viable. It would have made other weapons systems horrifying if the lag wasn't there. Can you imagine two-shotting a Daishi? Yeah. It can happen from 800 meters with the 3 PPC + Gauss combo in the game.

As it is now, that same combo two shots pretty much anything under 6 tons in MWO. That's not fun. That's... boring as hell. Oh, but you can close on them. But his buddies have the same weapons too so they all turn and two shot you!

See the problem?

This isn't a rant against the game from someone who is ********--I can play with the best of them in MWO right now doing the sniper game. I don't want to though. It is boring as hell. I got fed up with it in MW 4 and well, my stomach is churning already in this game in such a short period of time. I've never had such an unfun time playing this game since last June.

Don't cover the problem with band-****. Fix the problem completely.

[Nauht]

Mister Blastman, on 29 April 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well, about the only weapons that could be on gimbals within the torso are lasers--through a system of mirrors which... would get hot and be prone to failure. (the motors that turn them)

Autocannons, Gauss, PPCs--all practically impossible to have on gimbals from inside due to geometry constraints (there would be severe limitations to how much they could move... Remember, you aren't tilting a point, you're tilting the ENTIRE weapon system from within) plus... armor constraints. Think about it--the armor on the outside of the torso is fixed. The minute you start having movable weapons you then have a weakness in armor. A "*****." This armor wouldn't be as strong as regular armor and would make the weapons far more prone to being damaged and the torso itself weaker and more prone to being penetrated from certain angles.

This is why the only other solution for torso weapons would be fixed alignment as the entire armor plating would need to be removed and adapted for the new position of the weapons.

You would not need to move them much at all only a few degrees to get a wider firing arc.

Much like the ball turrets in MBTs now. Solid fixed weapons hard points are rare even in today's fighting vehicles.

But ofc this is a fantasy world and I haven't read anything about torso mounted weapons being fixed, or not, in the canon yet so we can make up any excuse for how it should be fired. I'm going with the weapons being able to be adjusted a few degrees.