94 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

The other problem is that most long distance snipe shot will hit the CT only. The game at a certain distance can't tell where to apply damage so it just applies it to the CT. Now if your shot is way off the general direction, it'll do arms and other torsos.

[MaddMaxx]

Neverfar, on 29 April 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Well, I made a forum thread precisely about that: that we'd all be better off if we discussed, even debated, hell, even argued about the game and resisted the temptation to assume people who disagree with us are "noobs" or "entitled" or whatever crap flows from the WoW forum sewer.

Sadly, if many did set their expectations at even a "reasonable" level about what can be done, when it can be done and how long it might take, then the Forums would dry up and no one would ever sound either "entitled" or be classed as a "noob".

Ain't going to happen...

[MaddMaxx]

Mister Blastman, on 29 April 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Well it will become a talking point when people stop playing the game. My poll doesn't lie (another thread). The sheer majority of the playerbase is /not/ happy right now with how the metagame is.

One can rest assured that they are looking at it. But it will not be fixed tomorrow, But for many even tomorrow is simply to late. We have had many Meta games. We will likely have many more. Other have seen corrections, why would this one be any different?

[MaddMaxx]

Jonathan Paine, on 29 April 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

A simple solution that does not require mad programming skills:
Spread out damage from the alpha strikes to several locations
Let chain fire, with a small delay between shots to combat macro, maintain perfect aim despite weapon location.
Pop tarting becomes a lot harder
6 PPC stalkers turns into a joke
2x ac20 builds becomes slightly harder to pull off

And in all seriousness here. How long before the next Joke Mech gets made after the 6 PPC Stalker is made a Joke?

Then the next.
Then the next.
Then the next.
Then the next.
Then the next.

You getting the jist here?

Making any Mech a Joke is totally counter productive to the cause. Thus by proxy, yours is a bad idea.

[MaddMaxx]

Darwins Dog, on 01 May 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

I like the idea of slowing convergence myself. Things like moving, jumping, and getting hit (depending on the size of the hit) would throw your aim off a bit, and it would take time (something on the order of .5 - 1 sec) to get it perfect again.

I don't like the idea of fixing weapon mounts to fire straight ahead. At that point you need a separate reticle for each mount, and having to work with 6 crosshairs moving all around would be a pain in the ***.

If the weapons were fixed, the reticules would not move. So it would sort of be like having 6 Tag lasers to show you where they would hit on the target.

[Screech]

Baddicus Wolf, on 29 April 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

I completely agree with the convergence idea, but not so much on the chest grid idea.

This would fix much. The fact that such a good idea can be shown via such horrible drawings also is perfect. I would like the ability to put cross-hairs for each of torso slots and then edit them as you desire.

[zraven7]

Oh, here's this thread! I was wondering where it had gone off to.

[MaddMaxx]

How about a reticule for every weapon added, then have a second key to have the Torso mounts converge. The CTRL does the arms and the ALT(?) would converge the torso mounts. They converge at some speed that a player could actually see happening to allow a trigger pull when perhaps only the RT and CT have converged while the LT weapon(s) are still inbound to the convergence point.

[Yokaiko]

Or just toss the whole **** like they should have 6 months ago.

There is still skill with damage spread.

[Appogee]

I came to the forum today to post the exact same idea as the OP...

The balance issues are caused by high damage alphas. Those alphas would be rendered less effective if body-mounted weapons - which aren't on gimbles - could not magically converge on the target as they presently do.

Arm mounted weapons could and should converge.

If this were implemented (and we'd need to change the reticles a bit to show where torso mounted weapons would hit) suddenly, there'd be much less attraction in boating. Players need to be a bit more choiceful in how they aim and fire.

And I don't think it would actually be that off-putting to new players because it is after all quite logical.

MWO could be the first game to accurately reflect this kind of convergence. I really hope the devs give this idea serious thought as a way of addressing the boating and Alphawarrior balance issues.

[Maxx Blue]

Pinpoint alphas are annoying and currently the most powerful configuration for sure, but there are a number of things that enable this dominance: Instant, pinpoint convergence. A heat system that doesn't cause overherat damage if you are shut down. A very smooth, predictable aiming system. Weapons that do damage instantly while others are damage over time, and a hardpoint system that allows a large number of the same burst-damage weapon to be mounted simultaneoutly. If you wanted to force a change in the Meta, you would have to change one or more of those parameters. However, MaddMaxx (no relation) is correct that, if this set of parameters didn't exist, there would just be a different 'best build'. That is true, and always will be. The folks playing competetively will only use a very small range of builds which best take advantage of the current rules. You can't change that ever. What you might be able to change are the roles that those best-builds fill and the performance gap between the best builds and simply good builds.

I think the reason folks are annoyed is that high-alpha builds are really effective, and alternate playstyles are noticeably worse at the current time. It seems that the difference between what a player at any level of skill can do with a PPC jump boat and some other build like a brawler or LRM boat is pretty significant right now. I don't mind playing a mech that is slightly worse than the best builds just because I like the playstyle or want some variety. What I mind is when playing anything but the best loadout feels like I am potentially handicapping my team, and right now that is how I feel.

All that said, there is only do much you can change without screwing up the whole system. For instance, you can't really change crit slots or weights of the weapons and equipment since that will ruin all of the stock mech loadouts in the game. Changing hardpoints to large and small is probably also tough since you would need to pretty much strip all the weapons off everyone's mechs when you implemented the change. It's possible, and I actually like the idea, but seems unlikely to happen. You aren't going to get lasers changed to instant damage weapons either so that is out. Really, all you can mess with are convergence, heat and aiming. I would really like it if they tried messing with ALL of those to see what happens? Try no convergence on torso weapons for a week, then try reticle shake for a week, and then try allowing overheat damage while shut down for a week. Give it a shot and see what happens; This IS a beta afterall.

PPC's aside, I do think that high-alpha pinpoint damage is too strong right now and the meta isn't going to naturally shift away from that unless game mechanics change. Personally, I think Heat and Convergence are the parameters that have the best chance at making a positive change. I would prefer heat changes myself (although not getting rid of DHS like that one guy keeps yelling about), but I think convergence might also work as well. I think fixed convergence would be less annoying than no convergence (I'm working on a HBK-4P right now and it is tough enough even when the lasers go where I want!), but even fixed convergence would also still allow for some pretty closely grouped damage at longer ranges. Either way, I'd be willing to try it out for a week. The worst that happens is my mech looks like a drunk parkinsons patient for a week as I wobble my torso around trying to get the next laser lined up on target!

[Renthrak]

Another take on the same problem here:

http://mwomercs.com/...out-randomness/

[Kahoumono]

Ok, so there is a growing group of players who think weapons convergence is an issue. Before we get ahead of ourselves racking our brains for solutions we need to know whether the devs think this is indeed an issue and it is something they are willing to tackle. If not, this is all just a waste of energy. Lets make our voices heard in the next ask the devs. I have asked before but was ignored so maybe if enough of us ask then it'll be addressed.

Now, time to waste some of my energy. I think the solution has to be a little bit of both nerfing convergence and ramping up heat penalties as the community cannot take such a drastic change. Also there are several tough considerations when looking at solutions to weapon convergence such as firing profiles of different weapons. For example, lasers can hit its target instantaneously and ballistics which very often requires leading a target. More specifically, how are weapons supposed to converge when your reticle is leading (not on) what you are trying to hit? Along the same lines what happens when the reticle slips off a target while quickly running past. The speed of convergence for targetting light mechs need to be different than hitting a large mech as it would be very difficult to keep a fast mech targetted for very long if it is circling a slow mech.

Edited by Kahoumono, 01 May 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Pht]

Renthrak, on 01 May 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Another take on the same problem here:


href='http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/115251-disco-minor-changes-to-aiming-without-randomness/' class='bbc_url' title=''>http://mwomercs.com/...out-randomness/

Or, God forbid, have the 'mechs actually behave like they do in the lore: http://mwomercs.com/...different-idea/

[Brilig]

Waiting for the next ask the Devs thread. Hopefully they will tell us if they are looking at convergence.

[MustrumRidcully]

Stiletto, on 29 April 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

The idea IS good. It is the solution to Alpha Strike Warrior. The problem with this game is the fact that you can pinpoint target with weapons that in no way should be able to do so.

I could even see some kind of variable convergence points that you could set and switch to in game. A Short, Med and Long Range point so you would know you would be on or very close at 150 300 and 450 M with a LL.

The game goes to a DPS game and a salvo shooting game which is exactly what it should be. Not about lining up one shot to core or headcap your opponent.

Frankly the other solution to Alpha warrior is implementing the Tabletop heat scale. Slow down weapons, twists, accuracy (make the weapons misfire perhaps) and multiple threshholds for ammo explosions.
Make the heat scale decrease at a reasonable rate so that if you take the heat to 30, you are shut down and most mechs are looking at 1-2 minutes of shutdown to cool.

This consecutive alpha-striking of no skill ends with a logical convergence and a realistic heat scale.

I don't see convergence and pin-point precision go away, eve though I understand the reasons why they are problematic.

I don't know if there will ever be done something about it. But there are two things that could be done to alleviate it:

1) Change the armour of hit locations. I am not talking about increasing the armour total - I am talking about splitting the existing total armour up differently between locations. Sensitive locations (particularly the center0 torso, because it is is such a large target) need more armour, and less sensitive need less. This encourages people to not always go for the CT kills.

2) Lower the alpha damage potential of mechs. To a large extent, lowering the heat capacity would help this. Energy weaopns are meant to spend a lot of tonnage and crit slots on heat sinks to deal with their higher heat levels - mechs like the famous PPC boats circumvent this limitation and rely on the high heat capacity we have - they have nowhere enough heat sinks to sustain their firepower for long, but they amass so much firepower and have so much range that they don't need to sustain it for long. The mech either deals enough damage to hurt, cripple or destroy an enemy, or you go back into cover and wait to cool off. (At close range, trying to go back to cover is difficult - the enemy is standing in front of you, you can likely not outrun him fast enough... especially not without exposing your back. THat's not a healthy proposition).
If that doesn't suffice, increasing the rate of fire of weapons but lowering the damage and heat per shot could allow them to keep their current (long term) DPS, but lower their alpha potential.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Brilig, on 04 May 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Waiting for the next ask the Devs thread. Hopefully they will tell us if they are looking at convergence.

yeah and ponies shoot rainbows out of their $SS, oh crap your serious aren't you?

[Tombstoner]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 May 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

I don't see convergence and pin-point precision go away, eve though I understand the reasons why they are problematic.

I don't know if there will ever be done something about it. But there are two things that could be done to alleviate it:

1) Change the armour of hit locations. I am not talking about increasing the armour total - I am talking about splitting the existing total armour up differently between locations. Sensitive locations (particularly the center0 torso, because it is is such a large target) need more armour, and less sensitive need less. This encourages people to not always go for the CT kills.

2) Lower the alpha damage potential of mechs. To a large extent, lowering the heat capacity would help this. Energy weaopns are meant to spend a lot of tonnage and crit slots on heat sinks to deal with their higher heat levels - mechs like the famous PPC boats circumvent this limitation and rely on the high heat capacity we have - they have nowhere enough heat sinks to sustain their firepower for long, but they amass so much firepower and have so much range that they don't need to sustain it for long. The mech either deals enough damage to hurt, cripple or destroy an enemy, or you go back into cover and wait to cool off. (At close range, trying to go back to cover is difficult - the enemy is standing in front of you, you can likely not outrun him fast enough... especially not without exposing your back. THat's not a healthy proposition).
If that doesn't suffice, increasing the rate of fire of weapons but lowering the damage and heat per shot could allow them to keep their current (long term) DPS, but lower their alpha potential.

The max armor per hit location is a hold over from TT. it made sense since it had a RNG for hit placement without it the ct is way to vulnerable. i would gladly not wast armor protecting my empty LT and LA. I mostly die from cored CT's any way.
i gladly strip armor of my back and legs just for a few seconds more survivability.

The problem with changing max armor per location is people will counter with, its dumeming the game down for the bads who cant use torso change to distribute damage. thus its bad. your removing skill from the game. your turning it into mech warrior spreed sheet online. go play MWT or TT.

As for heat capacity.... cant wait for clan tech....if you think things die fast now.... clan DHS that only take up one slot means that even if they reduce heat capacity i still add more since the volume restriction is lifted and we are back to where we started again. only this time with clan damage values.


everything needs to be reworked from internal volume scaling by mech size. armor effectiveness also scaling according to mech size.... weapon capacity per hard point.. so a mg mount can become an ac-2 or 5 but not a gause or ac-20.
why my atlas with its massive easy to hit arms can only hold one ppc i just dont get that.... A heat system that's more then just a binary pause in combat like changing clips. with cool shots it becomes extended clips. the game could stand to have some more weapons like a ppc-2,-5,-15,-20. or how about a gause - 5 or gause-10. a massive laser - 16....

lots of great things have been suggested in the forums.

so much of this game is arbitrary....again it just doesn't mater what we think.

[Pht]

MaddMaxx, on 01 May 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

One can rest assured that they are looking at it.

I doubt it.

They would have to go back on their previous posts on the topic:

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Zyllos: With many discussions on convergence of weaponry, has there been any discussions on why/why not more variability should be added to weapon fire, thus spreading the damage more across a target?

A: We’ve removed randomness from weapon firing in favor of skill.

From other comments that have been made it appears that the developers have, on purpose, removed the battlemech from the firing equation, with the sole exception of a slower reticule for weapons not in the arms; exactly why, I don't know.

The extremely annoying part is the "randomness," (besides the MechWarrior Piloting skill rolls/Gunnery skill rolls) which he mentions are actually the probabilities that define how well the mech can handle it's weapons in any given situation (overheating, shooting at evading targets, etc).

The combat capabilities of the 'Mechs are what they have really left out of this game, in favor of *only* skill in manipulating a split reticule and manuevering your 'Mech.

Replacing the fun and robust gameplay of "know your mech" with "track a slower reticule" just doesn't cut it.

Edited by Pht, 08 May 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Kahoumono]

Ok, time to dig this up. If everyone who has posted is so concerned about boating and high alphas they should just use ask the devs. I have asked before and was ignored but if enough of us ask whether they are looking into boating/high alpha and potential weapons convergence fixes they will have to as least address it.