31 replies to this topic

[Adridos]

Cubivorre, on 02 May 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

IIRC, the art for some of those mechs were originally contracted out to some HG artists and whatnot. But I could be wrong. I usually am.

The unseens are reseens both were made by Studion Nue.

A Japanese company that sold it's designs both to FASA and HG.

If you're talking about MW:O mechs, all of them are made by Flying Debris and the art team over at PGI.

[Bishop Steiner]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 02 May 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

So reseens have problems with IP too.They looks almost same as original

Actually most are pretty far off (Marauder?), or too generic, and yet, there is a reason the ReSeens are lounging in "retirement" again, too. Almost all the iconic architecture was changed.

[FerretGR]

Barghest Whelp, on 01 May 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Well, then what about reseen? We seriously need a 55 tonner. And some of the unseen variants would totally fill a gap which totally need to be filled.

Dervish.

**** the unseen/reseen. There are a million mechs in the BT universe to choose from and everyone's hung up on the ones that were ripped off. I say we stop talking about the unseen/reseen until such time that the usable mech supply is exhausted.

[BadgerWI]

First off let me just say thanks to everyone who posted. You have answered my question and gave me stuff to think about. I love the pgi redesigns. I mean just look at the source book flea vs the pgi. Wish they would give asolid yes we are working on it or no their dead let them go. Instead of the "stay tuned " status were stuck in. I like resolution. :-)
Aniviron; I wouldn't be missing it to much we just got a foot of snow.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

Harmony Gold on the other hand, is actively hostile, and looking for any opportunity to sue. So the Mechs would have to be MASSIVELY different than the Original, which would largely defeat the purpose, as 90% of the Clamor for the Unseen is due to their Iconic Look, moreso than their Hardpoints, which TBH are not terribly unique in most cases, and in the Current MinMaxWarrior Online Meta, already Obsolete.

HG's license from Tatsunoko for the mech and character designs is invalid since in 2002 the Japanese lower courts ruled that Studio Nue owns the copyrights to the mech/character designs while Tatsunoko owns the copyrights to the animation itself. Tatsunoko appealed then in 2006 the Japanese Supreme Court upheld the previous ruling. Under the Berne Convention, which the US, Canada, and Japan are signatories to their legal system would have to recognize the copyright laws and rulings from the country of origin. In this case, it's Japan that is the country of origin, so the US and Canadian courts have to recognize the rulings of the Japanese courts regarding the copyrights of the mech/characters from SLDF: Macross and Super Dimensional Southern Cross.

Incidentally, since HG created Robotech using SLDF: Macross, Super Dimensional Southern Cross, and Genesis MOSPEDA based under their marketing license from Tatsunoko this extends only to the animation itself and they cannot make a claim to the designs owned by Studio Nue since Tatsunoko didn't own them when they licensed it to HG. This puts Robotech in a peculiar position of violating the DMCA, Japanese, and US copyright laws since they're actively infringing upon Studio Nues copyrights regarding the mech and character designs.

EDIT: FASA originally held the license from Studio Nue for the mech designs before HG and Tatsunoko struck a deal. CGL had a deal with Studio Nue regarding the art for their 25th Anniversary book and HG illegally moved against CGL claiming they owned the marketing rights to those designs. They are wrong since their license extends only to the animation itself.

There is nothing stopping PGI from approaching Studio Nue and licensing the mech designs from all of the Unseens since Studio Nue owns them. HG couldn't do a damn thing since Studio Nue owns the copyrights and could use them as they so please.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 02 May 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[qki]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 02 May 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

I agree that all mechs in MWO are basicaly their own created mechs from point of art.Why they can not make Marauder?I am pretty sure it will not be same as HGs one .

Apparently - that's the issue. HG has a problem with anyone using anythig vaguely similar to their designs "cause the warhammer was a ripoff of the tomahawk, so any image of the warhammer is a ripoff by extension".

Which is pure BS, because the whole argument SHOULD about people using someone else's art for their game, instead of making their own. But that doesn't seem to be how this works. The way this works is that the copyright holder sues everyone for anything even remotely related, case 'they can't have a buisness, and also - screw you!"

[DirePhoenix]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Actually most are pretty far off (Marauder?), or too generic, and yet, there is a reason the ReSeens are lounging in "retirement" again, too. Almost all the iconic architecture was changed.

The main reason the ReSeens are in "retirement" is because the art they used to bring them back in Project: Phoenix was horrible. It was like they took our favorite designs and crapped all over them. Now since then, they've gotten better artists, who are able to make some more iterations on those designs (which is something you can do when working on your own design and not someone else's licensed materials... yet another reason to use in-house artists) to make them look better and they're starting to be accepted more again (XTRO: Primitives). However, none of this matters. Catalyst Game labs has to license from Topps to have those images in their sourcebooks. PGI does not have the rights to Topps images. PGI is not going to license from Topps. They don't have to. As we've seen with the 'mechs in-game and on the table right now, PGI is perfectly capable of creating their own designs.

I suspect the issue with bringing these 'mechs back into the video game world probably has more to do with "What will the community accept for these redesigns?" after the huge letdown of Project: Phoenix. After all, these 'mechs all played key roles and made up the core 'mechs throughout the history/lore of BattleTech, they should not look like crap. I have confidence that the art team here at PGI can accomplish that.

James The Fox Dixon, on 02 May 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

There is nothing stopping PGI from approaching Studio Nue and licensing the mech designs from all of the Unseens since Studio Nue owns them. HG couldn't do a damn thing since Studio Nue owns the copyrights and could use them as they so please.

There is nothing stopping PGI from just making their own designs for these 'mechs when they have to make their own designs for all the 'mechs in this game anyway. There is no need to license from anyone. And they shouldn't license from anyone. If they create their own art, then they can make their own iterations on that art later on. If they license an image, then they're stuck to that image, and can't make any iterations on it without permission from the licensor, which would probably involve the licensor creating new art and then having to issue a new license.

[Bishop Steiner]

qki, on 02 May 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Apparently - that's the issue. HG has a problem with anyone using anythig vaguely similar to their designs "cause the warhammer was a ripoff of the tomahawk, so any image of the warhammer is a ripoff by extension".

Which is pure BS, because the whole argument SHOULD about people using someone else's art for their game, instead of making their own. But that doesn't seem to be how this works. The way this works is that the copyright holder sues everyone for anything even remotely related, case 'they can't have a buisness, and also - screw you!"

Problem is FASA secured the copyright BEFORE HG, or so they thought. But due to the vagaries of international copyright, they essentially sold the rights TWICE, and HG somehow got the Exclusive rights. It ****** me off, because people act like FASA tried to underhandedly steal and claim the designs, when they actually went about it the right way, and in the end got screwed by their own poor record keeping, and HG's deeper pockets. Ad part is the ones who actually were stealing IP was HG/Playmates when they tried to produce this

with no compensation to FASA.

[BadgerWI]

Timberwolf what timber wolf

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

I would love to have my beloved Warhammers! As for those who would rather troll the issue rather than support the OP, ignore. The "Unseen" are some really fun chassis, cool looking, and should be in the game. It just isn't MW without them.

[Belorion]

FerretGR, on 02 May 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

Dervish.

**** the unseen/reseen. There are a million mechs in the BT universe to choose from and everyone's hung up on the ones that were ripped off. I say we stop talking about the unseen/reseen until such time that the usable mech supply is exhausted.

First: The unseen are always listed as the common mechs. Most of the other mechs are all rare/uncommon/all but missing from the battlefield, and that is why.

Second: To say the designs were ripped off from anyone suggests a lack of understanding of what happened. FASA would have most likely won their case. FASA had just come from a court case that they lost where their designs were ripped off. The Exo Squad series of toys were copies of some of the FASA original art. Yet, they lost in court. FASA actually had licensed the unseen from a Japanese company, as had Harmony Gold. If FASA lost a case as clear cut as the EXO Squad case, they surely would have one the unseen case, as they had actually licensed the images from a foreign entity.

They "lost" because they decided not to fight, and to simply remove the images from usage, it has cost them too much to lose the case they brought against playmates, and they weren't in the position to fight the suite HG brought against them.

[James The Fox Dixon]

DirePhoenix, on 02 May 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

There is nothing stopping PGI from just making their own designs for these 'mechs when they have to make their own designs for all the 'mechs in this game anyway. There is no need to license from anyone. And they shouldn't license from anyone. If they create their own art, then they can make their own iterations on that art later on. If they license an image, then they're stuck to that image, and can't make any iterations on it without permission from the licensor, which would probably involve the licensor creating new art and then having to issue a new license.

It's quite obvious that you know nothing about copyright law. The reason why PGI would have to license the mech designs from Studio Nue is because of the derivative works clauses in copyright law if PGI makes a mech that shares at least 75% of its design with an an existing art. If it's less than 75% then it is considered to be a new art. However, the problem is that the reseen shared nothing in common with the original art for the Unseen and that is why they flopped. People were expecting a reimaged/updated versions of the original artwork and didn't get it. PGI's current mech designs share more than 75% in common with the original art so they are a derivative of the original designs. This is also why PGI had to license the mechs as well as the entirety of the IP from Topps and Microsoft.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Problem is FASA secured the copyright BEFORE HG, or so they thought. But due to the vagaries of international copyright, they essentially sold the rights TWICE, and HG somehow got the Exclusive rights. It ****** me off, because people act like FASA tried to underhandedly steal and claim the designs, when they actually went about it the right way, and in the end got screwed by their own poor record keeping, and HG's deeper pockets. Ad part is the ones who actually were stealing IP was HG/Playmates when they tried to produce this

with no compensation to FASA.

There were two licenses handed out, but it wasn't like you thought. Studio Nue, the creators of the SLDF: Macross universe and Super Dimension Southern Cross, ultimately was decided to be the owners of the copyrights to the mech and character designs as well as the story. This company is the one that licensed the art to FASA before HG received a license. Tatsunoko, an animation company brought on board to help animate the series due to Studio Nue not having sufficient staff to do so. Tatsunoko issued a marketing license to HG that included the mech and character designs. Tatsunoko was ultimately decided to own the animation of SLDF: Macross and SDSC itself by the Japanese Courts. This wasn't a case of vague international law since Japan and the United States are signatories to the Berne Convention regarding copyrights. This was a case of Tatsunoko trying to steal the copyrights to everything from the creators of SLDF: Macross and SDSC.

Two different companies issued licenses. The licenses themselves were completely different as well. FASA had the reproduction and marketing license for the mechs from Studio Nue. HG has an exclusive worldwide marketing license to everything related to SLDF: Macross, Super Dimensional Southern Cross, and Genesis MOSPEDA issued from Tatsunoko to create a new brand called Robotech. The problem with Tatsunoko's license is that it granted copyrights to things that they did not own. The only series that Tatsunoko actually owns wholly is MOSPEDA. The other two series have a split copyright of one company owning the mech/character designs/story and all elements contained within the animation and the other company owning the actual animation.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 02 May 2013 - 09:08 PM.