106 replies to this topic

[Shomer Shalom]

Ngamok, on 01 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

So I can't see how they can't just play in two teams of 3 or one team of 3 and one team of 2.

Because you don't get to play together...its not fun.

Cham King, on 01 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Dude it's a computer game nobody cares about you and your online friends, on this subject all that matters is reasonably balanced teams and it seems PGI agrees on that matter so I guess good luck in your search for a new game.

Actually, people do care about their REAL LIFE friends, who many people play with on their "teams". Its random insult dude like you that people don't really care about.

[NinetyProof]

Shomer Shalom, on 01 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Because you don't get to play together...its not fun.

So playing with 3 of your friends is fun, but playing with 2 is not fun?

ie: group of 4: you are playing with 3 friends ... group of 3: you are playing with 2 friends.

So in essence your really lying then right? It's still *fun*, it's just not *as* fun.

Shomer Shalom, on 01 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Actually, people do care about their REAL LIFE friends, who many people play with on their "teams". Its random insult dude like you that people don't really care about.

No ... it doesn't sound like you care about them at all ... you only care about YOUR fun and what YOU want.

Sure, 5 man drops would seem to be more fun, till your 5 man got put in with an 8 man and you got slaughtered.
Sure, 6 man drops would seem to be more fun, till your 6 man got put in with an 8 man and you got slaughtered.
Sure, 7 man drops would seem to be more fun, till your 7 man got put in with an 8 man and you got slaughtered.

Are you seeing the pattern here?

Wait, your asking for the opposite, you want your 7 man to drop against pugs so you can slaughter them? How is that fun for the puggies?

So, quit lying to yourself, and quit lying to us.

Have 2 on: 2 man drop is fun
Have 3 on: 3 man drop is fun
Have 4 on: 4 man drop is fun
Have 5 on: 3 man drop + 2 man drop is fun, but not as fun as a 5 man drop theoretically would be.
Have 6 on: 3 man drop + 3 man drop is fun, but not as fun as a 6 man drop theoretically would be.
Have 7 on: 4 man drop + 3 man drop is fun, but not as fun as a 7 man drop theoretically would be.

Again, in theory your right ... but in practicality? Your either going to get slaughtered (matched against 8 mans), or your going to slaughter a pug match. In both cases, there is "non-fun" happening ... the former is non-fun for you, the later is non-fun for the puggies.

Quit lying to your self and be honest about the situation.

KKTHXBAI

Edited by NinetyProof, 01 May 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Ransack]

Cham King, on 01 May 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

It's pretty easy for someone to reverse that and ask why you are afraid to play without a premade

I'm not. I solo drop a lot. I have had to remove myself from teams and solo drop when we end up with 5. it frustrating as hell. Yay, I get 8 people on. we make a team, go run an 8 man. One guy has to leave. Disband reform as a 4 and a three. Someone else comes in, disband make an 8 again. The whole system is bloody stupid. Teams should scale from minimum to maximum.

Why is it that people feel like a 5-7 man team is going to slaughter pugs? Is that to say that there will be no be other 5-7 man team out there? what? Just because you have 5-7 guys on your team it don't mean jack didly really because of ELO matching. I am really puzzled by the statements that one more guy is going to turn a match into a route. So by the same token, if I only drop with one or two other people it's an automatic loss?

Some strange logic around here.

Edited by Ransack, 01 May 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Roadbeer]

The thing I find interesting in this conversation is...

Those who are asking for larger group sizes have, to a person, stated that they have been in the 'odd man out' situation and had to resort to pugging while waiting to be put in a group. They know the plight of the Lone Wolfs and have experienced it.

But those who keep crying "you just want to stomp pugs" appear to have no frame of reference to the group dynamic situation. Otherwise, rather than say that it's all about Pugsquashing, they would be on the "Separate queue" bandwagon.

Without trying to be inflammatory though there really is no other way to say it. Who do you think is more qualified to speak intelligently on the topic?

Just an observation.

[NinetyProof]

Quote

I'm not. I solo drop a lot. I have had to remove myself from teams and solo drop when we end up with 5. it frustrating as hell. Yay, I get 8 people on. we make a team, go run an 8 man. One guy has to leave. Disband reform as a 4 and a three. Someone else comes in, disband make an 8 again. The whole system is bloody stupid. Teams should scale from minimum to maximum.

Yes, but that is not a game issue ... it's the next thing that is an issue ... and that doesn't have an easy solve.

Quote

Why is it that people feel like a 5-7 man team is going to slaughter pugs?

This is not a feeling ... it's a fact. Heck, a good 4 man pre-made in an 8 man pug match is usually enough to slaughter the other team.

Quote

Is that to say that there will be no be other 5-7 man team out there? what?

Maybe? but assume for a minute there isn't ... what does MM do with your 5 man?

Quote

Just because you have 5-7 guys on your team it don't mean jack didly really because of ELO matching.

Except that ELO gets ignored if there isn't a match for you.

Quote

I am really puzzled by the statements that one more guy is going to turn a match into a route.

It's not really the 1 man ... it's not really going from 4 to 5 that is the issue. It's the going from 4 to 7 that is the issue.

You ignoring that. Your ignoring the fact that were 7 man drops available and were matched into pub queues against possibly 8 random lone wolf drops, that most wanna-be clans would drop 7 most of the time, even if they could drop 8.

MM really Really REALLY wants to match you. It tries to use ELO, it should also try to weight match you. But, in the end, those go out the window ... and it's those issue that end up on these forums.

In the end, it's not the 5 man that is the issue, it's the 7 man that is an issue.

Right now, there are quite a few organized clans that try to sync drop individual 4 man groups in the hope they will end up as an 8man vs Pug. That happens RIGHT NOW ... a lot more then anybody wants to admit.

If you actually allowed them to legitimately drop 7 man into 8 man pug MM? That would be *the* normal for the majority of clans because nobody would run 4's ... they would run competitive 8's (soon to be 12's) and then would then all run 7's.

That *is* the problem. You keep on focusing on 5 ... focusing on some ideal naive of fun ... and your not facing what would happen in reality far too much of the time.

Edited by NinetyProof, 01 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[WKMitchell]

I can say that from playing WoT(was in the top 1% of all players for the first year), Global Agenda(was in the top 5% of all players for the first year), NBT random servers, and many other competitive games that groups greater then 25% of the total team composition skew the balance even if they are using Elo to make matchs. Communication, teamwork, complimentary mech designs, and other things that are all not taken into account by the match maker have a way of skewing it greatly one way. (Stats in brackets are just to prove that I am not just some scrub who doesn't know how to play. I have been on both sides of this kind of match making and it simply is bad design.)

[Ransack]

NinetyProof, on 01 May 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Yes, but that is not a game issue ... it's the next thing that is an issue ... and that doesn't have an easy solve.

Quote

This is not a feeling ... it's a fact. Heck, a good 4 man pre-made in an 8 man pug match is usually enough to slaughter the other team.

Real talk. Last night two of us were dropping. My partner DC'ed as soon as we dropped, someone else a bit later. We ended up 6 vs 8. Me and 5 Pugs. vs 8. We won. No voice comms no anything but sticking together. No one even took lance command.

Quote

Maybe? but assume for a minute there isn't ... what does MM do with your 5 man?

It expands its pool looking for three to fill out the group and matches us against another set of 8. Just like it does now if you are below 4.

Quote

Except that ELO gets ignored if there isn't a match for you.

You get failed to find match and start over. Just like now

Quote

It's not really the 1 man ... it's not really going from 4 to 5 that is the issue. It's the going from 4 to 7 that is the issue.

I still fail to see an issue. We had two DC on a pug team, and we beat a synch dropped 8 man.
[
quote]
You ignoring that. Your ignoring the fact that were 7 man drops available and were matched into pub queues against possibly 8 random lone wolf drops, that most wanna-be clans would drop 7 most of the time, even if they could drop 8.

[Conraire]

The cold reality is, there needs to be integrated voice comms for the game. Every competitive shooter or team game I've played has built in voice comms. This generally kills the need for people to have TS to play properly.

90% of the problem with random pugs is, too many dimwits not understanding the concept of, TEAM games. Even when I lonewolf I still run with the pack in general, simply because I understand how the game works..

All the current system does, is completely stop people from playing with their friends, unless they want to try their luck sync dropping. Now, you could say, but you can use the comstar TS and get pick ups there. But, if your clan already has their own TS, why would they want to do that? And besides, I've seen how 8 players from the same group end up rolling people in pug matches. Because I've seen far too many people abusing sync drops. But, I've also seen, two 4 man group roll a sync drop group in a matter of minutes by simply moving in a coherent group and focus firing.

Ultimately though I would prefer to have my friends come back to the game, and as of right now, the lack of ability to drop with 5 or 6 is one of their biggest gripes.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

There should have always been a separate cue, one for straight up pug teams and one for any size groups balanced by tons and anyone who wants to either add to that or bring their own team ( ie 2 guys teamed up with 6 guys). its not hard, don't make it hard.

[Shomer Shalom]

NinetyProof, on 01 May 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

So playing with 3 of your friends is fun, but playing with 2 is not fun?

ie: group of 4: you are playing with 3 friends ... group of 3: you are playing with 2 friends.

So in essence your really lying then right? It's still *fun*, it's just not *as* fun.

I won't respond to the rest because it is dumb. For this, yes you're right. It is not *as* fun would be the correct way to say it if you want to be a technical internet ***** (90% of everybody online) that insists on picking apart every little wording flaw. I spoke with intentional hyperbole to be quick and snarky-sounding so I could sound cool

Ask anyone who has been in this situation. It sucks when your group has to split up, period. It is less fun for everyone involved when you don't get to play together, despite whether you win or lose. When I play with these guys, we play to enjoy a game together, not to OMGZ PUBSTOMP people. That experience is significantly broken up when you don't get to play in the same game, and always leads to people quitting.

On groups in general: OMGZ PUBSTOMPING is not even close to as big of an issue as bad players say it is. On the higher Elo brackets, nobody complains about this...ever. Before Elo, people would regularly cry about a "pre-made" stomping them when there was no premade on our entire 8 man team. People invent a straw-man argument to make themselves feel better about why they lost a PRETEND GAME! In the process, they ruin a fair deal of fun (there, I avoided an absolute statement for you!) for other people, and feel justified in doing so. This is the only online multi-player game I have ever played that artificially limits group size and teamwork.

If you're worried about 8 man pubstomping, then Elo should lift them out of your range in no time flat. Or, as Roadbeer said, just make a seperate frickin queue and be done with it.

[Yokaiko]

Adridos, on 01 May 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Nobody's forcing you to play with them.

You are right, no is forcing me to play at all.

[OneEyed Jack]

Scromboid, on 01 May 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

I know you kids learn almost literally nothing in school nowadays, so here -> http://en.wikipedia....ction_(grammar)

I will be surprised if you can make it through (not threw) that. You're (not your) education is probably (not prolly) lacking significantly (http://dictionary.re...gnificantly?s=t) in the grammar department, but with time, I am certain you shall overcome. (derivative, http://www.goodreads...-shall-overcome)

Now, eabodmf.

How embarrassing is it to make a post like this and then screw it up?
Your

• 
  1. (a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective): Your jacket is in that closet. Ilike your idea. Compare yours.
  2. one's (used to indicate that one belonging to oneself or to any person): The consulate is your bestsource of information. As you go down the hill, the library is on your left.
  3. (used informally to indicate all members of a group, occupation, etc., or things of a particular type):Take your factory worker, for instance. Your power brakes don't need that much servicing.

You're

• contraction of you are: You're certain that's right?

(source: Dictionary.com)

Ransack, on 01 May 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Why is it that people feel like a 5-7 man team is going to slaughter pugs? Is that to say that there will be no be other 5-7 man team out there? what? Just because you have 5-7 guys on your team it don't mean jack didly really because of ELO matching.

Either you are completely ignorant of Elo matchmaking, in which case you need to educate yourself before spouting ridiculous crap and trying to mask it as a logical argument, or are being deliberately obtuse.

Elo becomes a complete non-factor in any matchmaking involving pre-made teams if the size of those teams is too widely variable, as it can't account for the rather wide variability in effectiveness created.

If it's so important to you to drop with 5-7, then go to the public TS servers, pick up a couple guys there, and drop in 8-man queues. Then they aren't random, as you ability to keep or replace them at will give you full control over the group dynamic. But the simple fact you want to screw up the game for everyone else, rather than using the available way to play how you want, is that you need the ego-boosting powers of PUG-stomping. You're simply someone that prefers a game weighted in your favor to anything resembling a fair and challenging game. And you crave that crutch so badly that you're willing to come QQ publicly how badly you need it. Either that or you're dense enough to believe that we're dense enough to not see through it.

Zylo, on 01 May 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Yes, players should be able to launch with any size group as long as there is a similar size group on the other team. Group of 8 only matches up against another group of 8. This solves both the sync-drop problem and the low population 8-man matches.

A group of 8 should never match up against anything other than another group of 8 and the rest of the group sizes should have a +/-1 tolerance where a group of 6 might match up against a group of 5, 6 or 7 with remaining spots filled by lone-wolf players.

This is the only suggestion I've seen that makes any kind of sense for maintaining a relatively balanced format while allowing groups of variable size. Unfortunately, I'm not sure as to the viability. Trying to balance Elo, weight classes and group sizes (even with +/-1) would probably cause issues with either failure to find matches or being repeatedly matched against the same team. At least with the current player population.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 01 May 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[VariableX]

yes please, that is all

[Screech]

Yokaiko, on 01 May 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

I'm about to quit because of stupid pugs.

If only there was a way, with 100% certainty, you could not have to face puggers...

[Scromboid]

NinetyProof, on 01 May 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

So playing with 3 of your friends is fun, but playing with 2 is not fun?

ie: group of 4: you are playing with 3 friends ... group of 3: you are playing with 2 friends.

So in essence your really lying then right? It's still *fun*, it's just not *as* fun.

This entire post is filled with stupid.

OneEyed Jack, on 01 May 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

How embarrassing is it to make a post like this and then screw it up?

Good catch. I deserved that *** kicking. It was a typo, but the abuse is deserved.

As far as the rest of your post, all I have to say is this: You are, by removing the ability to group as you wish, segregating the community and small groups of folks who like to play together. Also, you introduce a false mechanic into the game, which is limiting group size. It becomes a crutch for ELO and MM and when PGI relies on it, they will never completely fix either.

Again, I say to the folks whining about the "pre-mades" - if you let the system work like it is supposed to, it should correct this issue on it's own. "Pre-mades" move up in ELO, LNW move down. The whole point of ELO is to pit folks against eachother who have the same 'theoretical percentage chance to win' and let skill determine from there. As PGI introduces other factors such as limiting group size, it muddies the water and hampers their actual ability to get ELO and MM working correctly.

That said, to those of you cursing "stupid puggers", you probably are one and just don't know it. Winners find a way to win.

Edited by Scromboid, 01 May 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

Scromboid, on 01 May 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

This entire post is filled with stupid.




Good catch. I deserved that *** kicking. It was a typo, but the abuse is deserved.

As far as the rest of your post, all I have to say is this: You are, by removing the ability to group as you wish, segregating the community and small groups of folks who like to play together. Also, you introduce a false mechanic into the game, which is limiting group size. It becomes a crutch for ELO and MM and when PGI relies on it, they will never completely fix either.

Again, I say to the folks whining about the "pre-mades" - if you let the system work like it is supposed to, it should correct this issue on it's own. "Pre-mades" move up in ELO, LNW move down. The whole point of ELO is to pit folks against eachother who have the same 'theoretical percentage chance to win' and let skill determine from there. As PGI introduces other factors such as limiting group size, it muddies the water and hampers their actual ability to get ELO and MM working correctly.

That said, to those of you cursing "stupid puggers", you probably are one and just don't know it. Winners find a way to win.

My faith in PGI getting an Elo system that actually prevents stomps in a purely lone wolf queue is pretty low.

My faith in Elo somehow magically balancing eight lone wolves vs a team of five to eight is absolutely 0. It will simply never work.

Here's an old thought. Match premade groups of similar sizes on each team ffs. It's not rocket science premades tend to have an 80-90% win rate when against pubs.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 01 May 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[Metafox]

I'm currently waiting around in a teamspeak channel with 4 other teammates. Yes, I do wish that I could play with my team right now.

Edited by Metafox, 01 May 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Zylo]

Keifomofutu, on 01 May 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

My faith in PGI getting an Elo system that actually prevents stomps in a purely lone wolf queue is pretty low.

My faith in Elo somehow magically balancing eight lone wolves vs a team of five to eight is absolutely 0. It will simply never work.

Here's an old thought. Match premade groups of similar sizes on each team ffs. It's not rocket science premades tend to have an 80-90% win rate when against pubs.

Many of us who run pre-made groups have been requesting this for months. Group size match should be #1 priority, weight class, tonnage or BV should be #2 priority and Elo should be #3.

Elo is NOT a magic fix for imbalance created by group size or weight class/tonnage/BV differences. The Devs need to understand that their game will never work with Elo as the top priority in matchmaking.

If group sizes are matched with a similar size group on each team with remaining spots filled by lone-wolves the game will be far more balanced for everyone. Groups on average will be larger meaning a lower total number of groups. This increases the chance of pure-lone wolf games. A solo only match system will never work because the cheating sync-droppers will find a way to solo sync-drop while working together in TS to farm the lone-wolf players. I say this as a group player who rarely drops solo. Sync-droppers WILL ruin a solo-only match system just as they would ruin any form of arena FFA system by working together in voice chat vs all the other solo players in the match.

As a pre-made player I say that pre-made groups should *ALWAYS* face a similar size premade group on the other team. This is the only way to be sure that the game is fair to both group and solo players.

For those who are sync-drop cheaters, you deserve to have the **** beaten out of your group of cheaters when you are forced to face a similar size group on the enemy team. It's pretty clear that anyone who is against a fair matchmaking system for both group and solo players is a sync-dropping cheater who can only win by stacking every possible advantage in their favor.

[Roadbeer]

Zylo, on 01 May 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Many of us who run pre-made groups have been requesting this for months. Group size match should be #1 priority, weight class, tonnage or BV should be #2 priority and Elo should be #3.

Elo is NOT a magic fix for imbalance created by group size or weight class/tonnage/BV differences. The Devs need to understand that their game will never work with Elo as the top priority in matchmaking.

If group sizes are matched with a similar size group on each team with remaining spots filled by lone-wolves the game will be far more balanced for everyone. Groups on average will be larger meaning a lower total number of groups. This increases the chance of pure-lone wolf games. A solo only match system will never work because the cheating sync-droppers will find a way to solo sync-drop while working together in TS to farm the lone-wolf players. I say this as a group player who rarely drops solo. Sync-droppers WILL ruin a solo-only match system just as they would ruin any form of arena FFA system by working together in voice chat vs all the other solo players in the match.

As a pre-made player I say that pre-made groups should *ALWAYS* face a similar size premade group on the other team. This is the only way to be sure that the game is fair to both group and solo players.

For those who are sync-drop cheaters, you deserve to have the **** beaten out of your group of cheaters when you are forced to face a similar size group on the enemy team. It's pretty clear that anyone who is against a fair matchmaking system for both group and solo players is a sync-dropping cheater who can only win by stacking every possible advantage in their favor.

You were making sense right up to your sync dropping rants.

You do realize that, sometimes sync dropping is the only way you can get your group of friends together because of the horribad group system?

And that sometimes it's not even a sync. There was a time tonight when 2 4-player teams from the same house ended up on the same team, and we weren't even on the same TS server.

[Keifomofutu]

Roadbeer, on 01 May 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

You were making sense right up to your sync dropping rants.

You do realize that, sometimes sync dropping is the only way you can get your group of friends together because of the horribad group system?

And that sometimes it's not even a sync. There was a time tonight when 2 4-player teams from the same house ended up on the same team, and we weren't even on the same TS server.

Well exactly. The mm randomly putting 2 groups of 4 against 8 pubs is a great example of it simply not working well. Elo can't fix that. It should be built from the ground up to set those two groups against each other every time and fill in the gaps on each with the eight pubs. It can Elo the most fair arrangement of the eight lonewolfs. The point is that match will never be anything but a stomp unless those two premades face each other.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 01 May 2013 - 09:38 PM.