88 replies to this topic

[80Bit]

The hot topic of the moment sloshes back and forth more than a fat man's bathwater, and right now in the wake of the Assault Contest everyone is raging about PPCs. After a weekend of jumpsnipefest 2013, it is certainly understandable.



But before you work yourselves into a tizzy about how PPC/ERPPCs need their heat levels increased again so people don't boat them, try to remember the past. Yes I know it can be hard, but think back to long, long ago (a few months) before the heat changes to PPC weapons.

Are you there now? Do you remember how many people used them? Almost none. Sure almost no one boated them, but almost no one used them at all. Not Stalkers, not Cataphracts, and certainly not light mechs.

Be really sure of what you are asking for regarding changes to PPCs. I for one enjoy having lots of useful weapons in the game. I am really annoyed that LRMS are nearly pointless now. I am really annoyed that people threw such a hissy fit about dual Gauss that Gauss is made out of balsa wood now. And I will be really annoyed if PPCs again generate so much heat they are a second rate weapon.



I agree that Alphawarrior needs some tweaking and that everyone using the same high pinpoint alpha builds makes the game stale. But the solution is going to need to be larger in scope that simple spot nerfing/buffing weapons. I like the fact that PPCs are actually usable weapons right now, and I hope that does not change.

Edited by 80Bit, 24 April 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[StandingInFire]

Yup, there is noting wrong with PPCs, heck even now you are arguably better off using large lasers than PPCs. It is a simple matter of PPCs being very fun to use.

LL v PPC
5 tons v 7 tons
9 dmg v 10 dmg
7 heat v 8 heat
900 max range v 1080 max range
2 slots v 3 slots

Edited by StandingInFire, 24 April 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Death Mallet]

StandingInFire, on 24 April 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Yup, there is noting wrong with PPCs, heck even now you are arguably better off using large lasers than PPCs. It is a simple matter of PPCs being very fun to use.

LL v PPC
5 tons v 7 tons
9 dmg v 10 dmg
7 heat v 8 heat
900 max range v 1080 max range
2 slots v 3 slots

Well the flaw in your logic is that LL is a spread-damage weapon while the PPC is a single location weapon. Makes a big difference.

On the other hand, standard PPCs have a minimum range, which can be a factor sometimes.

But overall I'm not in favor of nerfing the PPC. It's supposed to be king of the battlefield.

What needs to be nerfed is boating.

More than 2 of the same weapon system and there ought to be some kind of penalty.

Or simply go to the hardpoint-size approach that's been discussed numerous times before.

[Vrekgar]

Nobody used PPC's before not because of the heat they inflicted.

You couldnt hit the broad side of a barn back then with them.

Since then they increased the projectile speed, lowered heat, added EMP effects, and now instituted Host state Rewind that makes them easier than ever to use!

They could easily survive a return to their higher heat days without unduly affecting legitimate uses.

[Yokaiko]

Vrekgar, on 24 April 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Nobody used PPC's before not because of the heat they inflicted.

You couldnt hit the broad side of a barn back then with them.

Since then they increased the projectile speed, lowered heat, added EMP effects, and now instituted Host state Rewind that makes them easier than ever to use!

They could easily survive a return to their higher heat days without unduly affecting legitimate uses.

No not really. They were a pain burden even with DHS

Edited by Yokaiko, 24 April 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Vrekgar]

The heat certainly did not help. But they had deep issues stemming from the inability to reliably hit a target.

NOW we have the ability to reliably hit targets, so they dont NEED the lower heat.

[Yokaiko]

Vrekgar, on 24 April 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

The heat certainly did not help. But they had deep issues stemming from the inability to reliably hit a target.

I could always hit targets with ballistics. All of them. PPCs hit detection was so bad that even if you hit they did no damage but that has been fixed for a while now.

[zorak ramone]

80Bit, on 24 April 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Be really sure of what you are asking for regarding changes to PPCs. I for one enjoy having lots of useful weapons in the game. I am really annoyed that LRMS are nearly pointless now. I am really annoyed that people threw such a hissy fit about dual Gauss that Gauss is made out of balsa wood now. And I will be really annoyed if PPCs again generate so much heat they are a second rate weapon.

If they nerf PPCs by increasing their heat, we'll be back to the days of the GR and UAC5 being the kings of all weapons, only now it will be worse because SRMs got nerfed and LRMs are worthless. It would be nothing but Jagers, K2s, CTFs, Atlases and Highlanders.

Also, GRs should have their durability restored, but AC20s should also be buffed by dropping heat. Even in balsa-wood state, the GR is still superior to the AC20.

Vrekgar, on 24 April 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

The heat certainly did not help. But they had deep issues stemming from the inability to reliably hit a target.

NOW we have the ability to reliably hit targets, so they dont NEED the lower heat.

PPCs could hit assaults and heavies with no problems before the heat buff, and they still weren't used, and its all because of the heat. HSR just means that lights aren't invulnerable anymore.

[Jukebox1986]

zorak ramone, on 24 April 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

PPCs could hit assaults and heavies with no problems before the heat buff, and they still weren't used, and its all because of the heat. HSR just means that lights aren't invulnerable anymore.

HSR improved firing at all targets, not only lights.

Buff the Heat, or Buff most off the other Weapons.

[Yokaiko]

Janus Wealth, on 24 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Buff the Heat, or Buff most off the other Weapons.

Take the nerfs off of the Mlas and slas so the can be boated again, LLAS vs PPC boat is already down to point given equal numbers the Llas with a steady hand should win that.

....and make SRMs useful in groups of less than 18 again.

[Blue Hymn]

Death Mallet, on 24 April 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

What needs to be nerfed is boating.

More than 2 of the same weapon system and there ought to be some kind of penalty.

So...mechs that are primarily designed to boat ppcs - ergo, Awesomes - should have penalties?

[Dr Hobo]

I used to be the guy in the Founders Jenner with dual ERPPCs...or was it 1? I dont remember,but man,I would cook myself in that really hot map if I wasnt careful.

And

Blue Hymn, on 24 April 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

So...mechs that are primarily designed to boat ppcs - ergo, Awesomes - should have penalties?

If heat was fixed this wouldnt be a problem,if we had penalties for running hot there wouldnt be problems..instead we get stuck with extremely high alpha builds,and poptarding idiots....

Also,i ran with an ERPPC on my Jenner(Founders) for the longest time. Was a boat load of fun getting up blasting twice(then OH) and running off to cool down.

[NinetyProof]

The Issue is not PPC at all ... but really the advantages of ALPHA strikes. The only downside to ALPHA right now, especially ALPHA PPC is if you miss ... or if you overheat while under fire.

The heat you save from weapon group or chain firing is negligible .. THAT is the problem. There needs to be more of a hockey stick effect on heat ... and it needs to be reflective of how much heat you can dissipate. If you run light on heat sinks, then putting 60% load all at one time should incur more of a penalty then putting 40% or 20%.

Right now, load doesn't affect heat at all. It's linear and static. If you fix that, a lot of these issues go away.

[dyndragon]

NinetyProof, on 24 April 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

The Issue is not PPC at all ... but really the advantages of ALPHA strikes. The only downside to ALPHA right now, especially ALPHA PPC is if you miss ... or if you overheat while under fire.

The heat you save from weapon group or chain firing is negligible .. THAT is the problem. There needs to be more of a hockey stick effect on heat ... and it needs to be reflective of how much heat you can dissipate. If you run light on heat sinks, then putting 60% load all at one time should incur more of a penalty then putting 40% or 20%.

Right now, load doesn't affect heat at all. It's linear and static. If you fix that, a lot of these issues go away.

In agreement here. I also would propose reducing the projectile speed of PPCs a bit too. Maybe not to pre-patch PPC speeds, but now with HSR it's just easier to hit with anything projectile. I feel like the projectile speed increase was put in to compensate for the fact that hitting moving targets and having the server register them was very difficult already.

[FrostCollar]

80Bit, on 24 April 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

But before you work yourselves into a tizzy about how PPC/ERPPCs need their heat levels increased again so people don't boat them, try to remember the past. Yes I know it can be hard, but think back to long, long ago (a few months) before the heat changes to PPC weapons.

Are you there now? Do you remember how many people used them? Almost none.

Other people have mentioned it, but just to reiterate - this change is all about HSR. I regularly hit targets (even larger mechs) with PPCs and didn't have hits register. In such an environment, the heat they generated didn't make sense.

Now, since my hit is also the server'*****, that argument is harder to make.

[zorak ramone]

Yokaiko, on 24 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Take the nerfs off of the Mlas and slas so the can be boated again, LLAS vs PPC boat is already down to point given equal numbers the Llas with a steady hand should win that.

....and make SRMs useful in groups of less than 18 again.

This.

Revert heat on MLs and SLs (and MPLs and SPLs) to their pre-closed beta nerf (ML to 3, SL to 1, MPL to 4, SPL to 2). Also, buff SRM damage back to what it was (2.5 damage per missile), but eliminate splash damage. Now you have some light weight weapons with clear advantages over PPCs/GRs.

While you're at it, drop the heat on AC20s to 3 and AC10s to 1.25 or something and you now have two more weapons that have clear advantages over snipining weapons.

PPCs didn't become overpowered when their heat was dropped to 8. PPC became overpowered the MOMENT the last, no-BS brawling weapon (SRMs) was nerfed.

[hammerreborn]

zorak ramone, on 24 April 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

This.

Revert heat on MLs and SLs (and MPLs and SPLs) to their pre-closed beta nerf (ML to 3, SL to 1, MPL to 4, SPL to 2). Also, buff SRM damage back to what it was (2.5 damage per missile), but eliminate splash damage. Now you have some light weight weapons with clear advantages over PPCs/GRs.

While you're at it, drop the heat on AC20s to 3 and AC10s to 1.25 or something and you now have two more weapons that have clear advantages over snipining weapons.

PPCs didn't become overpowered when their heat was dropped to 8. PPC became overpowered the MOMENT the last, no-BS brawling weapon (SRMs) was nerfed.

PPCs need their speed reduced to what it was pre-buff. keep the heat, keep the damage, just remove its ability to basically be a pin point laser. Then speedier lights and mediums can get into brawl range easier to unleash their own weaponry, where the convergance issues of PPCs start occuring.

[zorak ramone]

Janus Wealth, on 24 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

HSR improved firing at all targets, not only lights.

Buff the Heat, or Buff most off the other Weapons.

FrostCollar, on 24 April 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Other people have mentioned it, but just to reiterate - this change is all about HSR. I regularly hit targets (even larger mechs) with PPCs and didn't have hits register. In such an environment, the heat they generated didn't make sense.

Now, since my hit is also the server'*****, that argument is harder to make.

This is simply not true.

If HSR is the reason why PPCs are ok now, then why were people using GRs and UAC5s before HSR, but not PPCs? They are projectile weapons as well and yet they were dominant and the PPC was not.

You could hit anything but lights and high speed mediums with PPCs just fine before HSR. I was using PPCs back in the first month of closed beta (fully understanding they were underpowered, but hell, I'm stubborn). Once they upped projectile speed and increased projectile hit radius, you could hit anything but lagging light/super fast mechs reliably. The only thing HSR did is remove the lag shield on fast/small mechs.

The reason why PPCs were worthless is HEAT. The reason why the AC20 and AC10 suck compared to the GR/UAC5/AC5 is HEAT.

If you revert heat on PPCs to 9 or 10, then the result is predictable: we're back to where GRs/UAC5s are the undisuputed kings of the battlefield ... only now its worse because SRMs are nerfed and LRMs are worthless.

[Yokaiko]

hammerreborn, on 24 April 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

PPCs need their speed reduced to what it was pre-buff. keep the heat, keep the damage, just remove its ability to basically be a pin point laser. Then speedier lights and mediums can get into brawl range easier to unleash their own weaponry, where the convergance issues of PPCs start occuring.

Pre-buff was dead on with the Gauss at 1200m/s. You want to get hit with both again? I used to click of lights all the time with my gauss rifles.

Edited by Yokaiko, 24 April 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[zorak ramone]

hammerreborn, on 24 April 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

PPCs need their speed reduced to what it was pre-buff. keep the heat, keep the damage, just remove its ability to basically be a pin point laser. Then speedier lights and mediums can get into brawl range easier to unleash their own weaponry, where the convergance issues of PPCs start occuring.

More insanity here.

Nerf PPC speed and GRs/UAC5s are kings again. Nerf their speed as well and we're all the way back to the first month of closed beta where lasers are the only viable weapons.

PPCs became dominant the MOMENT SRMs/LRMs were nerfed. PPCs are dominant due to lack of counters/alternatives. Restore missile damage, and we come a long way to countering PPC dominance.