66 replies to this topic

[jeffsw6]

I keep saying the #1 priority for PGI, above bugs even, should be integrated VOIP. It would (somewhat) level the playing-field between 4-mans and PUGs. It is the biggest game balance problem that exists.

[Roadbeer]

[Lostdragon]

I can't get my gamer friends to stick through the cadet bonus. These are guys who have accomplishments like High Warlord in vanilla WoW, Warcraft 3/Starcraft tournament wins, top rankings in BF3 and CoD. These are not the type of people who shy away from committing time and effort into gaming. They will bust out spreadsheets and tools like smurfy without hesitation.

But they don't want to play this game because it just simply is not fun for new players for a number of reasons. All of these guys are 25-40 and have money to burn on games but not a single one has been willing to play more than 10 matches of MWO, let alone drop some money on it.

[Roadbeer]

Lostdragon, on 29 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I can't get my gamer friends to stick through the cadet bonus. These are guys who have accomplishments like High Warlord in vanilla WoW, Warcraft 3/Starcraft tournament wins, top rankings in BF3 and CoD. These are not the type of people who shy away from committing time and effort into gaming. They will bust out spreadsheets and tools like smurfy without hesitation.

But they don't want to play this game because it just simply is not fun for new players for a number of reasons. All of these guys are 25-40 and have money to burn on games but not a single one has been willing to play more than 10 matches of MWO, let alone drop some money on it.

Holy non sequitur Batman

[Multitallented]

Lostdragon, on 29 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I can't get my gamer friends to stick through the cadet bonus. These are guys who have accomplishments like High Warlord in vanilla WoW, Warcraft 3/Starcraft tournament wins, top rankings in BF3 and CoD. These are not the type of people who shy away from committing time and effort into gaming. They will bust out spreadsheets and tools like smurfy without hesitation.

But they don't want to play this game because it just simply is not fun for new players for a number of reasons. All of these guys are 25-40 and have money to burn on games but not a single one has been willing to play more than 10 matches of MWO, let alone drop some money on it.

maybe that's cause they play rts and rpg games like wow/warcraft/starcraft instead of fps games.

EDIT: also the game is mainly just grinding at the moment. It will be that way until lobbies/community warfare/other game modes. I recommend trying again at launch.... maybe a bit sooner.

Edited by Multitallented, 29 April 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Lostdragon]

Roadbeer, on 29 April 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Holy non sequitur Batman

How does it not follow? The game is set up in such a way that a new player is thrown to the wolves. This iw not conducive to attracting new players. I game with about 10 guys that can realistically pick up any game and play it at the highest level. When 3+ of those guys start spending time in a game then at least 20 more will check it out and some will stick with it.

Word of mouth is huge in gaming circles and the inability of MWO to generate good buzz right now is going to hurt it in the long run.

Multitallented, on 29 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

maybe that's cause they play rts and rpg games like wow/warcraft/starcraft instead of fps games.

EDIT: also the game is mainly just grinding at the moment. It will be that way until lobbies/community warfare/other game modes. I recommend trying again at launch.... maybe a bit sooner.

Did you fail to notice the mention of BF3 and CoD? Hell, one of them used to play Goldeneye tournaments. All of the guys I am thinking about play a variety of games and are good at all of them.

Maybe they will try again at launch, but one of them compared 10 MWO matches unfavorably to a root canal.

[Roadbeer]

Lostdragon, on 29 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

How does it not follow? The game is set up in such a way that a new player is thrown to the wolves. This iw not conducive to attracting new players. I game with about 10 guys that can realistically pick up any game and play it at the highest level. When 3+ of those guys start spending time in a game then at least 20 more will check it out and some will stick with it.

Word of mouth is huge in gaming circles and the inability of MWO to generate good buzz right now is going to hurt it in the long run.



Did you fail to notice the mention of BF3 and CoD? Hell, one of them used to play Goldeneye tournaments. All of the guys I am thinking about play a variety of games and are good at all of them.

Maybe they will try again at launch, but one of them compared 10 MWO matches unfavorably to a root canal.

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, or the OP.

[Davers]

Neverfar, on 29 April 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

It doesn't take long, on this forum or in the game itself, to see that there are problems. All MMOs have them, absolutely. This isn't a special case. Nor is the problem I see here unique to MWO. But it is still a problem and can have dire consequences if it is not dealt with.

Game balance is about the overall state of the game, and all the people that play it. It's not just about you. For that matter, it's often about the people most loathed by the verbal minority that bother to post on forums, go to conventions, make themselves visible and heard the most: it's about the "noobs", the "scrubs," and for that matter the "casual players" that "dumb down" the game whenever an undesirable change comes around.

Yes, it's about the need for an online game to retain enough of a playerbase to keep running.

As I have said before in a thread called "New Player Experience," a lot of new players are immediatley put off in this game. Some even posted on the forum after a brief and disappointing stomp-down, and it was made clear to them that to many of us, game balance was about "I got mine".

"I got mine" is an ugly attitude, here and in real life. It assumes that because one has a sandwich, the other person is not hungry. It's the same attitude that leads to the expansion of problems that could have been dealt with early and easy if they were not shouted down earlier.

Nerfs are often imminent in MMOs, whether or not they are welcome by a player or by his playstyle. I'll give a personal example. One of my favorite Mechs is a Raven 3L. Yep, with Streaks. I understand Streaks too consistently hit center torso at present. In the grand scheme of things, I am ready for a nerf and will accept it.

I wish the alpha boaters who whine about how "skilled" they are and how their "skill" shouldn't be punished would have the same attitude (boy, there's a lot of "skilled" people out and about at all hours in pick up group matches these days, aren't there?).

Long story short (TL;DR if you want to call it that): game balance is about all of us, and what's good for as many of us as possible. It's not just about "team you".

What exactly are you suggesting? You mention that nerfs are coming, but thats up to the Devs, not the players. The Devs are responsible for game balance. In fact many people in the forums could claim that the Devs have largely ignored players cries for balance, and have reacted with glacial speed to make even small adjustments.

You admit to abusing exploitive mechanics, but then call out others who are actually using builds that are working AS INTENDED. Pin point accuracy? The Devs said they want that. The ability to boat multiple PPCs? The Devs have allowed that with the hard point system and heat system they have created. Never once did they say 'Our heat system is not working as intended" or "We never envisioned people using multiple large energy weapons." While PPCs may end up being tuned in response to the new data (maybe they never realized how accurate people are once they didn't have to lead targets by 2 inches) they are not going to put in hard point sizes or any of the more radical ideas being thrown around (DHS are not going anywhere).

If the Devs didn't want people to be able to drop in groups then they should have held off implementing that. Maybe they should have, until CW and integrated VOIP (or at least until they finished implementing the Commander role). But they didn't. In fact they proudly proclaim in the new tool tips to 1. Get on VOIP with a group, and 2. Teamwork is the key to victory.

Is the 'new player experience' bad? Of course it is. It ALWAYS is. There is no 'hand holding' mode. They get dropped in with the rest of us. I remember my first few games in WoT where everyone gets furious if you don't know every map and the strategies for them. It's the same for new players, only with a more complicated control system and a mechlab filled with useless weapons. How is a new player supposed to know that machine guns and flamers are useless? PGI has a lot of work to do with the 'new player experience', but if we encounter them in game are we supposed to just stand there and let them kill us to spare their feelings? It's up to PGI to make them want to stay. And your 3L Raven with ECM and SSRMs that may have been un-hittable before HSR might have chased away new players as well. Maybe you should offer yourself up to the next 10 trial mechs you encounter as penance?

[Lightfoot]

@LostDragon,

MWO is a mech game. Some people don't like torso-twist replacing Mouse-look and decide it's not for them. I myself would never play CoD or BF3 even if I was paid to do it, well, if I was well paid maybe. I know those games are well made and very popular, but not to my taste.

@ OP,

MWO is a very good robot sim and I must say the immersion factor is 10x better with a Joystick, but, to each his own. I see nothing wrong with MWO. It's finally becoming a map based tactical game, which results in the best MechWarrior gameplay. I can't accept not being able to use your favorite mech config on every map as some dire problem. Boats can be a problem ,but the solution is stop the boating, not nerf the entire game.

Perhaps they are right that overall damage is too high, the weapon recharges are all double or more of their Battletech values and it might be too much for new players.

As for the overall MechWarrior gameplay dynamic. Stop trying to re-invent it. Within reason stick to Battletech, it is a very balanced system that's been very well thought out and tested. If you drastically change one thing you unleash a new demon to take it's place.

MechWarrior can't please everyone, but MWO should please most and reward those who stay with it. I am really looking forward to CW and unit ranking and roleplay missioning.

[Lostdragon]

Roadbeer, on 29 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, or the OP.

Did you not read paragraph 4 of the OP? The balance issues in the game have a huge impact on how novice players perceive it and whether or not they stick with it and tell their friends about the game. The current meta is a nightmare for anyone in a trial mech, particularly someone who is new to the game.

Lightfoot, on 29 April 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

@LostDragon,

MWO is a mech game. Some people don't like torso-twist replacing Mouse-look and decide it's not for them. I myself would never play CoD or BF3 even if I was paid to do it, well, if I was well paid maybe. I know those games are well made and very popular, but not to my taste.

That's all well and good, but the type of people I am trying to describe are gamers who are not just CoD savants. They play many types of game and are generally good at all of them with some exceptions. Some have genres they favor, but they tend to enjoy any good game. The three guys I thought would really be into the game had fun learning how to drive in the training grounds and liked the idea of the deep customization, but when they actually played some matches they found them frustrating and not fun.

It's hard to convince someone to keep doing something that isn't fun right off the bat because they might enjoy it later. I doubt most of these guys will give MWO another look.

[Davers]

Lightfoot, on 29 April 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

@LostDragon,

MWO is a mech game. Some people don't like torso-twist replacing Mouse-look and decide it's not for them. I myself would never play CoD or BF3 even if I was paid to do it, well, if I was well paid maybe. I know those games are well made and very popular, but not to my taste.

@ OP,

MWO is a very good robot sim and I must say the immersion factor is 10x better with a Joystick, but, to each his own. I see nothing wrong with MWO. It's finally becoming a map based tactical game, which results in the best MechWarrior gameplay. I can't accept not being able to use your favorite mech config on every map as some dire problem. Boats can be a problem ,but the solution is stop the boating, not nerf the entire game.

Perhaps they are right that overall damage is too high, the weapon recharges are all double or more of their Battletech values and it might be too much for new players.

As for the overall MechWarrior gameplay dynamic. Stop trying to re-invent it. Within reason stick to Battletech, it is a very balanced system that's been very well thought out and tested. If you drastically change one thing you unleash a new demon to take it's place.

MechWarrior can't please everyone, but MWO should please most and reward those who stay with it. I am really looking forward to CW and unit ranking and roleplay missioning.

Battletech has been thoroughly tested as a miniature war game, not a FPS. And even then there were many rules revisions over the years. It is not surprising that MW games share the same problems since they are based on BT. Jump snipers? Nothing new here. High alpha strikes ruling the day? Check. BT (at least at this era) is a game of wildly inaccurate mechs that miss a large percentage of shots and end up kicking each other in the shins or hitting each other with trees, none of which is actually in Mechwarrior.

[Xizore]

Lostdragon, on 29 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

The game is set up in such a way that a new player is thrown to the wolves. This is not conducive to attracting new players.
...
Maybe they will try again at launch, but one of them compared 10 MWO matches unfavorably to a root canal.

I have played a lot of competative gaming including WoW and CoD. My new player experience (in closed beta) was much harder than what new players experience now and I enjoyed the progression-style grinding. I had to save and save and save to be able to afford my first mech (a 3 million Cbill Jenner). Repair/Rearm bills made the free-to-play experience and challenging and rewarding one. At the end of the day, I enjoyed it because I wanted to be here and I wanted to be a mech pilot. Maybe the game is just fine and your friends are the problem.

@OP Well said! I would add that I fear that this generation of gamers has been spoiled by other game companies *cough* Blizzard *cough* giving in to the whining and entitlement of some of the player base instead of preserving balance and fun.

[Davers]

Xizore, on 29 April 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

I have played a lot of competative gaming including WoW and CoD. My new player experience (in closed beta) was much harder than what new players experience now and I enjoyed the progression-style grinding. I had to save and save and save to be able to afford my first mech (a 3 million Cbill Jenner). Repair/Rearm bills made the free-to-play experience and challenging and rewarding one. At the end of the day, I enjoyed it because I wanted to be here and I wanted to be a mech pilot. Maybe the game is just fine and your friends are the problem.

@OP Well said! I would add that I fear that this generation of gamers has been spoiled by other game companies *cough* Blizzard *cough* giving in to the whining and entitlement of some of the player base instead of preserving balance and fun.

Some people might say that actually playing the game in the mech that you want is fun, and that grinding for hours to buy an XL engine is just grind to hide the shallow content. If you were a billionaire and personally financed this game for your own amusement, would you put in R&R and force yourself to grind for 50+ hours to afford 3 outfitted and Mastered assault mechs?

[Roadbeer]

Lostdragon, on 29 April 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Did you not read paragraph 4 of the OP? The balance issues in the game have a huge impact on how novice players perceive it and whether or not they stick with it and tell their friends about the game. The current meta is a nightmare for anyone in a trial mech, particularly someone who is new to the game.

Wow, ok, so you decided to take one sentence of the OP and turn it into a talking point about the NUE, where there is a WHOLE THREAD right here...

http://mwomercs.com/...yer-experience/

[Lostdragon]

Xizore, on 29 April 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

I have played a lot of competative gaming including WoW and CoD. My new player experience (in closed beta) was much harder than what new players experience now and I enjoyed the progression-style grinding. I had to save and save and save to be able to afford my first mech (a 3 million Cbill Jenner). Repair/Rearm bills made the free-to-play experience and challenging and rewarding one. At the end of the day, I enjoyed it because I wanted to be here and I wanted to be a mech pilot. Maybe the game is just fine and your friends are the problem.

That's the kind of elitist attitude that also serves as a great deterrent to new players. There is a simple formula to success for multiplayer games. They need to be easy to get started but difficult to master. MWO has it half right at the moment. I love the MW series, but I probably won't keep playing MWO as much as I have been or spending any money on it if none of my friends want to play it. I want the game to succeed and do well, but for that to happen it needs to attract more players than just the hardcore BT/MW fans.

[Xizore]

Davers, on 29 April 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Some people might say that actually playing the game in the mech that you want is fun, and that grinding for hours to buy an XL engine is just grind to hide the shallow content. If you were a billionaire and personally financed this game for your own amusement, would you put in R&R and force yourself to grind for 50+ hours to afford 3 outfitted and Mastered assault mechs?

I wouldn't support the return to R&R, but the grind is okay how it is currently.

Trial mechs provide a good and free opportunity to try out different classes of mech. Purchasing and gaining experience on a mech is the icing on the cake that helps players to improve and excel. XL engines are expensive, but I have felt that they fit under the icing on the cake analogy. Customization is very fun and I have no problem with PGI providing a means for players to shortcut the grind through micro-transactions. I think the hardest thing for a new player is finding out which mech fits their playstyle. I think that is a significant drawback to the F2P model, but it must make business sense to someone.

[Lostdragon]

Roadbeer, on 29 April 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Wow, ok, so you decided to take one sentence of the OP and turn it into a talking point about the NUE, where there is a WHOLE THREAD right here...

http://mwomercs.com/...yer-experience/

There have been many threads about the NUE and I have made comments in some of them. I fail to see how agreeing with the OP and expanding on one of the points he made with my perspective is not relevant to this discussion. Maybe I didn't illustrate my point clearly or maybe it was something else. Either way I think that balance issues and particularly the points the OP made are very much linked to the perceptions new players have of the game which makes it a relevant issue to the thread.

[Xizore]

Lostdragon, on 29 April 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

That's the kind of elitist attitude that also serves as a great deterrent to new players. There is a simple formula to success for multiplayer games. They need to be easy to get started but difficult to master. MWO has it half right at the moment. I love the MW series, but I probably won't keep playing MWO as much as I have been or spending any money on it if none of my friends want to play it. I want the game to succeed and do well, but for that to happen it needs to attract more players than just the hardcore BT/MW fans.

Allow me to refine that statement.

My experience was harder than new players have it now, but it was easy to make it up to the 3 million Cbill mark for my first purchase. What's elitist about that? I didn't make any claim about how long/short my grind was. I think your definition of success is the matter which we are discussing. I disagree that every game must be easy to get started.

MWO has a steep learning curve because it knows what it wants to do with the genre.

[Davers]

Xizore, on 29 April 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

I wouldn't support the return to R&R, but the grind is okay how it is currently.

Trial mechs provide a good and free opportunity to try out different classes of mech. Purchasing and gaining experience on a mech is the icing on the cake that helps players to improve and excel. XL engines are expensive, but I have felt that they fit under the icing on the cake analogy. Customization is very fun and I have no problem with PGI providing a means for players to shortcut the grind through micro-transactions. I think the hardest thing for a new player is finding out which mech fits their playstyle. I think that is a significant drawback to the F2P model, but it must make business sense to someone.

Trial mechs are horrible and in no way showcase what a variant can do. A trial A1 Catapult has 2 LRM20s. Thats it. That doesn't even come close to a single customized build for it. The only way a new player would know what an A1 can do is if they encountered it in the field. 2 LRM20's, and no Tag. I hope this never actually becomes a trial mech.

This is a commercial game and must be able to make money. They need to have a grind in order to incentivize the purchase of premium time and hero mechs. But that is a necessary evil. I don't feel rewarded by having to save up to buy engines and upgrades that are 100% necessary to be competitive, especially since I am forced to play against everyone else's already optimized mechs while I am trying to do so. In fact I can say that I have never played a stock mech since the very first day of Open Beta. There is nothing fun about them.

[Deathlike]

I see enough players in the stock trial Awesome... and I run a Stalker that's infinitely more superior to the stock Awesome build (which the stock Awesomes happens to have 3 PPC, 1 SL). Trust me when I say... I feel really bad for the newbie. For your reference, the Stalker has at least 3 PPCs, and runs a STD 300 engine, plus more goodies... which is already superior than the stock Awesome.

Just remember that nerfing one thing may indirectly "buff" something else. The current meta reflects that (since the major missile nerf) and anyone that ignores that is foolish.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 April 2013 - 02:57 PM.