62 replies to this topic

[Mycrus]

Play a light strike role - the death's knell with max engine and 4 med laser is good for this role.

Targeting info module is best for this as you focus your fire on already damaged bits.

Trick would be to perform close - in scouting say just a grid away from your main strike force

This allows you to quickly rejoin if your strike team is engaged or act as bait and lead mechs towards them.

[Metallis]

Prezimonto, on 01 May 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

As a heavy pilot primarily, I decided I wanted to try a highly mobile mech good for scouting. I've now got basic's done for all 3 spiders and I can confidently say that this thread is exactly correct. The light pilot is rewarded, in a meaningful way, for only skirmishing, and because you're a light that means less potential damage output that any other class and less potential kills than any other class, and with HSR in the game in means I need to run and hide between shots, which means less opportunities for Savior and Defense bonuses. LRM's are nerfed to the ground between ECM and lower damage, which makes TAG only useful for spotting ECM mechs. The spotting bonuses are a joke. Take a look at how World of Tanks rewards scouting, because it's a meaningful and large bonus to find the enemy and to actively spot (if you're the designated spotter you split rewards with the damager) the role is actually taken seriously. Capping can win matches, but usually with a large number of complaints from both teams unless it's a last ditch effort becuase the rewards are MUCH worse than hanging in the fight and dishing out large damage. IF Repair and Rearm were in the game (and consequently knock-down drag out fights were balanced against having to pay for damage received) then capping wouldn't be such a bad option, but when R&R was removed they didn't rebalance the benefits for cap wins enough to offset gameplay choices. Now look at the hardpoint selection for the Spiders and try to tell me they're designed for skirmkishing instead of scouting... 3 energy, 2 energy, 4 ballistic(read mg or 1 ac2 or 5) and 1 energy... energy slots in center torso only for 2 variants.... these mechs can pack a tag ONLY at the expense of 1/3 to 2/3 or more of their damage potential... but their hardpoint layout is **** poor for bank shots and quick skirmishing without a large amount of skill. I just can't believe they would put the spider (a rare mech cannonically) into the game if they didn't believe there was a role for primary scouts. So where are the in-game rewards for this type of game play?

I loved your post. To answer your question, there is no big reward. To be a light pilot you just have to love it. I stay broke. But I love the excitement of piloting a light mech. Doing what i do with flare and occasional kills. As well as getting blasted to smithereens. It's tough to make money with lights. But when I do make some, I buy mods to help my light either cap faster or increase my sensors. There are no high damage points, no consistent large number of kills, no glamor. But damn it, they are fun.

Edited by Metallis, 02 May 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[DrunkDrivin]

Mycrus, on 02 May 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

Play a light strike role - the death's knell with max engine and 4 med laser is good for this role.

Targeting info module is best for this as you focus your fire on already damaged bits.

Trick would be to perform close - in scouting say just a grid away from your main strike force

This allows you to quickly rejoin if your strike team is engaged or act as bait and lead mechs towards them.

In a pug you are just as likely to get shot by your own team if you are too close. Heavies and assaults have no problem shooting through you to get to a target. I play a spider quite often and found that being between the enemy and my own team is not a good thing. I will amend that. Being anywhere near my own team is a not a good thing.

[ICEFANG13]

Light mechs are still pretty good, and good at many things. I'm still plenty dangerous to heavier mechs, even though the game is in a terrible state right now. Light mechs get better the more missiles are good, overall. SRMs really need some attention, for me (Jenner-D) but a lot more so for you. Commandos and missiles are like peas and carrots, and SRMs really suck for weight right now. Plus the spotter LRM thing (which has been dead since TAG 750 range) and general LRM boats which make for good kills, and less snipers who can just turn and kill you in 1 shot. Remember LRMaggenden which made the hotfix that made all missiles suck? Yeah I was really enjoying the easy kills while they were using LRMs. I don't pack ECM, I just pack awesome, on a Jenner-D.

My team has this expression, when you can't fight, but have to secure your base against 1 target. Icefang the base they say, and we all know that means to not truly fight, but to remain behind the base always. I mean the big drilling thing, its easier in a Commando, and easier still in Spiders, you can fire between the legs, for their legs, if they give up, or just stay on the other side waiting for help. Its pretty funny to see them struggle with you.

You will live a lot longer if you vary your speed. Its not as easy as it used to be. Being random is what is helpful, but being slow is what gets you killed (ie don't stop move too much or you will die).

On last Sunday, we has some 8 mans. We dropped on River City Night, and their brawler centric team snuck between me (up by Kappa/upper city), and lower citadel with ECM and night cover, we didn't see their entire team get on our base (in assault). I was the only one who could get there fast enough to stop them. I had to wait, 15 seconds, for my team to enter the square and 'fight' all 8, which included 3 brawler Atlas D-DC, and 1-2 Cents, and a poptart (ER PPC+Gauss) Tre. And not only did I live, and we won the game (as they looked away from the water, and my team was awesome). The Tre really wanted to kill me, I remember looking at my darker orange legs and body and thinking "I can't do this" and then getting his target info and thinking "dark red? I can do this" with a single shot he fell. Couldn't help but think of Lord of the Rings (The Two Towers) when the orc is chasing merry and pippin. SMASH!

I'd tell you to run with me, and we could have some fun. I love playing with light mechs who are good, and don't abuse the SSRMs which sounds like the geniuses at PGI think are great with Artemis. But truth be told, I can't stand pugging anymore. I'm not blaming my team for every loss, but the current game, with snipers galore means that if you don't play perfectly, you will die without a chance, and with randoms, its just terrible. I always joke that if the team lives, and don't die, I will win the game for them, one by one, until they die. Perhaps when the game is in a better state, we could play together.

I love that you want to avoid SSRMs, I do too, but because of how messed up they are, they truly are the best missile weapon right now, even with ECM. The broken Artemis (that the devs said they were ok with "jackie chan whhhaaa?") and hitting center torso, I guess we can wait until May 7th, but considering how they have balanced thus far, I have very very low expectations to be honest.

Could I see your build? Maybe I could suggest something?

Edited by ICEFANG13, 02 May 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[Prezimonto]

The issue isn't that a light designed to be a striker like the Jenner-D is bad(they're great at what they do and have appropriate rewards for doing it)... it's that the variants designed for scout roles are awful in the sense that the game has no built in rewards of significant enough value to offset the skirmish role. It makes a large percentage of the things lights can and should be doing feel worthless and unrewarding.

[Corvus Antaka]

I agree in the sense of rewards. Also that since the stealth bubble at range for ECM was brought in scouting has been destroyed.

imho the long range stealth effects of ECM are killing this game more than anything else.

[Prezimonto]

You and nearly every person I've see on the boards. Too bad it's "working as intended". Too bad their upcoming changes don't begin to actually address the reason it's game breaking powerful.

[Taemien]

The only incentive you all need to be worried about at the end of the day is the end of match screen saying "Victory"

This little BS stuff about exp/cbills for doing stuff is both arbitrary and redundant. It does nothing but promote a style of play that is over all a detriment to the team. When you have to put a carrot on a stick to get players to do anything, there is an issue. That means there is little reason to do it for the sake of the match. What should happen, either through map design or mechanics change is if scouting should be important than you should simply lose if you don't have someone doing it. Getting this accomplished is of course tricky to implement.

One way is to allow Artillery (replace the Snipers with Longtoms) and Airstrikes (add other weaponry to the bombing run, perhaps dropping bombs first, then coming back for another pass to hit with lasers, missiles, autocannons against any mech that was in the target area when the bombs were dropped) to be much more destructive to the targets they strike. Arrow IVs could also be added to a mech's arsenal to provide long range bombardment to Narc'd or Tagged targets.

Everything I suggested isn't affected by ECM since its all LOS. With BAP and Adv Sensor Module you're actually able to get in close enough to target the ECM mech without being under his disruption effects. Only a fast moving mech will be capable of getting in undetected like this though flanking. And of course TAG, Artillery, and Airstrikes are unaffected by ECM as well. Make the latter two more effective and quicker to engage, and you have a nice little reason to scout.

Though I want to be clear that this isn't limited to light mechs. BAP can be mounted on Centurions, Trebuchets, and Dragons. So they can fit the role well. Light mechs have the advantage of smaller profiles those mechs do not, and can be much harder to hit. So there is risk/reward related to those choices and comes down to pilot preference.

[Prezimonto]

I can't believe how little you understand basic human behavior. If you give people cash and rewards for doing something they will. Right now the game actually penalizes you for capping territory by over emphasizing damage and kills. I've just spend another few hours playing a spider, my win rate is high and I'm nearly always listed with the worst match score because I follow what you're saying: winning is important. Except, I feel like I'm being punished with the **** job that's not worth mentioning, my actions result in my whole team getting a reward, including me... but they ALSO get more stuff. It just sucks after a while. The play is fun, and the screen that says how did proclaims you a failure in the details.

Essentially, your point of view is fine for 8 man drops, where you at least get the reward of the appreciation of your team. As it stands most PUG matches you get little or no respect unless you skirmish well, even if you're made significant contribution through play.

To be clear, I do not want module consumables doing damage, they're available to all and will reinforce spending cash to win. If they were to add actual artillery, I'd love it. Mech mortars, LRM mine ammo... all of it would be great.

[Sephlock]

But there are also DISincentives, like those long games where you know you are going to lose in the first 2-3 minutes but have to play until the timer runs down because you're on Alpine or Tourmaline and your opponents (you) feel like playing Carmen Sandiego.



That heavily incentivizes capping- at least the pain is over quicker then.

[Teralitha]

I love how everyone is a light mech expert without actually playing light mechs.

Oh yea.. and indirectly... Removing DHS will help solve this problem

Edited by Teralitha, 02 May 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Taemien]

Prezimonto, on 02 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

I can't believe how little you understand basic human behavior. If you give people cash and rewards for doing something they will. Right now the game actually penalizes you for capping territory by over emphasizing damage and kills. I've just spend another few hours playing a spider, my win rate is high and I'm nearly always listed with the worst match score because I follow what you're saying: winning is important. Except, I feel like I'm being punished with the **** job that's not worth mentioning, my actions result in my whole team getting a reward, including me... but they ALSO get more stuff. It just sucks after a while. The play is fun, and the screen that says how did proclaims you a failure in the details.

Essentially, your point of view is fine for 8 man drops, where you at least get the reward of the appreciation of your team. As it stands most PUG matches you get little or no respect unless you skirmish well, even if you're made significant contribution through play.

To be clear, I do not want module consumables doing damage, they're available to all and will reinforce spending cash to win. If they were to add actual artillery, I'd love it. Mech mortars, LRM mine ammo... all of it would be great.

In the rare case that I do worse in score than my team, and I know my actions were what made us win (dearming a major threat, capping to move the opponents out of their dugin position, destroying a ECM light, ect.). I always remember this quote by Vince Lombardi:

Quote

Winning is not a sometime thing. You don't win once in a while. You don't do things right once in a while. You do them right all the time.

What this means to me is I will do the right thing in order to secure a victory. It doesn't matter if my team appreciates it. It doesn't matter what I look like at the end of the game. I know for myself, that I did what was necessary and pulled it off. I don't do things for others to congratulate me for them. I do them for myself.

When I lose, I don't blame the PUGs. I don't blame my opponent for being cheap. I don't blame the system for being imbalanced. I blame myself and look at what I should have done to secure the win.

[Zen Hachetaki]

One thing I always do at the start of a match is try to pick a wingman and ask them to pair up - a pair of lights can be VERY dangerous! We have the most nimble targeting - if I see a vulnerable spot - boom it gets hit. Maybe not hard but more often than not I can keep finding that spot again and again. If I am the only light (which happens too often) I tell the team I will find the enemy and then become capper (not a RTB back capper). At least it is exciting and you can disengage if you are doig the capping rather than coming back to an AC 20 to the face from the YLW capper...

Preferred rides: 5D, 5V, Jenners (yes even the K is still fun), but yeah the Spiders are so much fun - 5 D smokes people with ER PPC & 2 Md Las and the 5V is the ultimate troll with max JJs - I just laugh maniacally the whole time in the 5 V...

[KKRonkka]

Conquest mode - Light mech strategy, long story short....

Is he...

a ) running towards cap
b ) capping already
c ) failing (insert reason)

Edited by KKRonkka, 03 May 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Fate 6]

I run almost exclusively mediums. One of the guys in the group I drop with harassed me constantly because I ran mediums. Guess what? I consistently score top points on the team with my CN9-A (which I personally consider one of if not the best mechs in the game).

Play what works for you, because playing anything else won't be as fun or effective.

[Prezimonto]

Taemein, I understand your point. I actually agree, I play that way. I'm say that it sucks that the tangible rewards for good play don't exist(in meaningful quantities) for a light, and in some cases (early capping) are effectively a penalty that makes your team angry with you. I love playing a Spider, I even like skirmishing in the 5D with the arm hardpoints to get deflection shots on the move. What I don't love is the game actively telling me that I'm bad and don't contribute as much of value when it's plainly false. It doesn't keep me from doing what can and should be doing, but it rubs me the wrong way to see other people earn rewards for what is sometimes mediocre play while I kick *** for the team have a phenomenal match, and get the same or lower rewards.

[Taemien]

Prezimonto, on 03 May 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Taemein, I understand your point. I actually agree, I play that way. I'm say that it sucks that the tangible rewards for good play don't exist(in meaningful quantities) for a light, and in some cases (early capping) are effectively a penalty that makes your team angry with you. I love playing a Spider, I even like skirmishing in the 5D with the arm hardpoints to get deflection shots on the move. What I don't love is the game actively telling me that I'm bad and don't contribute as much of value when it's plainly false. It doesn't keep me from doing what can and should be doing, but it rubs me the wrong way to see other people earn rewards for what is sometimes mediocre play while I kick *** for the team have a phenomenal match, and get the same or lower rewards.

I say keep at it. I understand what you mean though.

I just look at incentives a bit suspiciously because of what they can cause. If you've ever played a FPS where you get points for repairing vehicles and revives. Some players will revive spam you or see that you take damage to your vehicle so they can repair it. Or in some cases Team Kill one another over these bonuses. Such situations are rather rare of course. But players will use incentives in crazy unforeseen ways, even to the detriment to their teams.

Capping bonuses for example. If you've read any of my posts about my position on capping in Assault, you would think I would support bigger bonuses to capping bases. I don't. I really really do not support that. The reason being is if they adjust it too high, players will simply beeline to the base in a cap race. I've played games where that happens and that isn't fun. I of course don't cap bases to rush, I cap to win, and to tick off my opponents into coming after me. But not everyone is going to do that. Not everyone takes to incentives the same way I do.

Therefore we have to be careful which incentives we add or boost in the future.

Spotting Assists, Defense Bonuses, and Tag/Narc bonuses seem rather harmless. Even if a player spams these, he's only helping the team. I support these. There are some incentives that can be encouraged without fear of detriment. Though we don't want to encourage them so far that they pursue these over other activities as well.

But I think you get the idea.

[Victor Morson]

Out of all the lights you drive a Commando.

Anyone who drives a Commando in MW:O cannot be considered an Expert on anything MW:O related, unless done in irony.

[stjobe]

Victor Morson, on 03 May 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Anyone who drives a Commando in MW:O cannot be considered an Expert on anything MW:O related, unless done in irony.

I'd say you've gotten that exactly backwards: To pilot a (non-ECM) Commando or (non-ECM) Spider with any success at all you need to be an expert - otherwise you'll just be dead.

[Weztside]

Windsaw, on 01 May 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I've been piloting a Commando since way back in closed beta. Sometimes skilled other mechs, but always returned to the Commando. The only heavy I have been using for an extended amount of time is the Jägermech.

You know, I try to do what scouts are supposed to do: scouting, spotting, defending the base.
And I am getting sick of it.
Let me tell you why.

First, there is no used spotting anymore. That role has been so nerfed over time that neither is it rewarded enough for the risks, nor does it noticably affect the outcome of the battle anymore.

Second, the scouting. I have no problem with it. It is an exciting job. However, usually the job is done two minutes into the match. Am I supposed to be dead weight after that? Oh, I have tried to continue scouting and affect the game with it. Even if I manage to make out targets without being spotted, too often can't I do anything because some enemy has ECM. I stopped doing such scouting missions because it is rock-paper-scissors on ECM. Not worth the risk.

Third, the base defense.
I have done this a lot. Base was being capped, they cried "lights RTB" and I did. You know what happens all too often? At the base there isn't a light. Most lights just cap a short time and then move on. No danger. If the capping is serious, most of the times there are either one or more heavies or several lights at once involved.
And you guess what: Lights suck at point blank defense! For months I tried to block the capping long enough for reinforcements to arrive. Sometimes they do. Usually I am dead by then. But most of the times I just die and don't effect anything.

You know, I may still do my duty. If it were rewarded in any way.
Do I get rewarded for blocking capping? Not a single C-Bill!
Do I get rewarded for taking that risk? Nope!
How does my K/D-ratio change because of it? It drops!
You say K/D-ratio is a meaningless metric? Well, I used to agree, but now we have ELO. And if I understood correctly an ELO would be considered working when W/L ratio becomes 50%. Which means winning is also something not desireable. Not when my match score will always be at the bottom end.

Now, if I just choose to ignore a RTB I still have the opportunity to score kills, savior boni, kill assists. In short: I'm getting more of everything except the win. But in the long term ELO is going to take care of that for me.

I know, this must sound like I'm being a jerk to all those that I play with.
But I don't think I care anymore. We are lights. We are the pariahs of this game. No matter what I do, I get insulted by other players. Before yesterday, it's been three months since the last time I got a recommendation during the game. In the same time I have been insulted about fifteen times. Not necessarily personally, but since there are so few lights around anymore, it is usually clear who is meant. I've even been called a Trollmondo, even though I refuse to use ECM and streaks.

I changed my duty-driven outlook on my role as a light last week.
Right at the beginning of the match someone wrote "lights: if someone is capping, RTB".
I wanted to know if he ever played lights himself.
He wrote "cappin and cap defense - that is all you lights are good for"
So basically he is asking for me to do something dangerous to win the game and at the same time is insulting me.
I wish I could discount this as a single occurance.

So I will no longer be spotting: It is useless.
I will scout only at the beginning: More is dangerous but does not pay.
I will RTB, but only if at least one heavier mech assits me. Otherwise it is too dangerous and does not pay at all.

If I am already playing the pariah class, I may just as well live up to my reputation.

I understand what you're saying, but if you hopped on the free NGNG TS3 server and dropped with some people you would see that amongst an organized team the recon roll is badly needed and much appreciated. WIth a team on comms you can relay information in real time and actually be a game changer on the battlefield. There is always an assault mech that needs a light escort, an LRM boat that needs you to supply him with locks, or other lights that badly need a wingman to survive in the alpha strike rich world of MWO. Make some friends. Drop with them. Watch your experience improve.