87 replies to this topic

[Daneel Hazen]

The biggest difference is that the clan economy is successful because it is about as close to a meritocracy as possible and has a real goal. The best people go to the jobs they are best suited for and test out for.

[Georgegad]

I have only read a few of the novels but i was under the impression that the great majority did not use currency at all.

They are a mostly military organization and no individual soldier has to pay for ammunition or uniforms or mech parts. Everything is requisitioned, likely through whatever is the clan equivalent of a quartermaster.
You put in a request for whatever it is you desire and whenever the guys in supply get around to it they decide if they give it to you or not.

Again, that is only the way it appeared to me in the small selection of material I have read.

[Leiska]

Naglinator, on 03 May 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

Ahh yes, investing all those monies back into factories and jobs right? Lol, nope. Billionaires tend to buy fixed income securities, mainly foreign government bonds and corporate bonds not anything tangible.

And what do governments and corporations do with the funds raised with bonds? That's right, they construct stuff and hire people. Why would they intentionally go into debt and then just sit on it? Bonds are a fund raising method that corporations and governments use to finance investment. Virtually no single entity can independently fund large projects, hence we have bonds (and equities).

Quote

Speaking of "moral" capitalist, sit down and think for a second why there are sooooooo many treatments(pharmaceuticals) and sooooo few cures Ahh yes, the always ethical capitalist Don't get me wrong our current system is preferable to our previous system, but don't say it's superior to the clans. The clans works well for them, very very well. They have their needs met, they don't need our need of 17 different(yes the same) smartphones.

Like I said, remotely moral. However, we should be thankful for having those treatments as without the pharmaceuticals we wouldn't have even that. Government is much less efficient at coming up with treatments because it is not pressured by market discipline. No single person simply cares all that much if work doesn't progress properly or if the product isn't really what the market wants, because it's not their personal investment that's at stake. It's also extraordinarily difficult to fire someone from many government offices, so even the employees don't have much pressure to perform.

Also, you say the clanners don't want 17 brands of smartphones. Who are you to dictate that? Spoken like a true central planner. It's this delusion of thinking an elite is needed to run the lives of other people that causes all the misery in the world.

[Naglinator]

Oh sigh, they do indeed build stuff. Instead of a hospital, they build a textile factory in Indonesia. Instead of a water well in Africa we get golf courses in California. Oh, and thank you pharmaceutical for making cancer drugs sooo expensive that I have to sell my house for treatment Governments don't really work on medicine so you cant really say that they are OR are not efficient at it. Clanners don't want 17 smart phones because like YOU they were conditioned by society to not. Obviously TV commercials did wonders on you because you just love consumerism. They were brought up to be happier with a good living(higher then most of the inner sphere) and to do sports and social interactions. We were brought up to be happy with Hollywood and Pepsi, and whatever else. You still miss the point that im not say that OUR system is inherently wrong, just that THEIRS is NOT ridiculous. Just different. By the way, 'Murica won WW2 by have a system much more like the clans then they do now

[Karyudo ds]

Georgegad, on 03 May 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

I have only read a few of the novels but i was under the impression that the great majority did not use currency at all.

They are a mostly military organization and no individual soldier has to pay for ammunition or uniforms or mech parts. Everything is requisitioned, likely through whatever is the clan equivalent of a quartermaster.
You put in a request for whatever it is you desire and whenever the guys in supply get around to it they decide if they give it to you or not.

Again, that is only the way it appeared to me in the small selection of material I have read.

That's what it seemed like in the books I read. Though technically I have trouble seeing a society functioning without an currency structure.

Although as with the current game I would at least expect them to use cbills here to balance out progression and keep things simple.

[Naglinator]

People, they HAVE currency. They get PAID for their labour. Warriors do not. The money is electronic, and is only good for 3 months so that big purchases can be made but to stop hoarding. Please read up before commenting.

[Daneel Hazen]

Yeah, the sourcebook says that warriors requisition more or less (which is considered an order that is a- direct order to produce). Although for the game... this is a problem. I guess you could accumulate status points or honor points that would equate to whatever production time a mech takes..

[Georgegad]

Leiska, on 04 May 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Also, you say the clanners don't want 17 brands of smartphones. Who are you to dictate that?

Seriously? You are suggesting they would like being pawns of corporate greed if they only had the chance to try it?

I find that a little ridiculous. Nobody has a real need for 17 different brands of the same thing. It only happens in our world due to capitalism and would never occur in a more efficient system.

If there are real reasons to have 17 different types of object then obviously the clans would have all 17 versions available upon request.

[Naglinator]

Funny, earlier on you said how inefficient the centralized research is. However, the Marik's were unable to cure their son of leukemia in their shining example of capitalism but the Davion centralized NAIS managed to have a cure.

[Georgegad]

Naglinator, on 04 May 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

People, they HAVE currency. They get PAID for their labour. Warriors do not. The money is electronic, and is only good for 3 months so that big purchases can be made but to stop hoarding. Please read up before commenting.

Yes, i did read the material. You were aware that they are all initially warriors?

The only people who are not are the ones who flunked out of training and had to try something else.

The currency they have is only used by under classes and none of the people we play here on MWO will have any use for it. They do have a form of trade currency but it is normally only used for transfers of goods between clans. There is also a form of credits to track how much labor a laborer has given, but you will never need to use that as a mechwarrior.

Apart from that, anyone else found with currency and no good explanation for where he got it is suspect of being involved in the black market.

Edited by Georgegad, 04 May 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Naglinator]

Obviously you have not read it. Kerensky's are only used by merchants in inter clan trading. Everyone else is issued digital currency. Warriors are NOT in the equation. Thry are not paid. And their mechs are fixed by the state just like modern military equipment.

[Georgegad]

Naglinator, on 04 May 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Obviously you have not read it. Kerensky's are only used by merchants in inter clan trading. Everyone else is issued digital currency. Warriors are NOT in the equation. Thry are not paid. And their mechs are fixed by the state just like modern military equipment.

What the? You say i have not read it then you go on to repeat exactly what i just said. Did you even read my reply?




Kerensky's are only used by merchants in inter clan trading.

A proportion of people drop out of warrior class and might become laborers, these people are paid in a digital currency called credits and its main reason to exist is to keep that class in line.

Nobody of importance to most of their society, or at all in our game, uses money of any form.

They have a super high level of technology and all the reasons our society has for money just do not exist for them.

Edited by Georgegad, 04 May 2013 - 10:35 PM.

[Wolf Ender]

clanners should have to fight each other for the right to pilot clan omnimechs

[Adridos]

DifferentFish, on 03 May 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'm aware. Really the ridiculous thing is that's lasted for 300 years when the USSR barely made it past 50.

The important part is the fact that USSR never actually "got there."

[Naglinator]

It's like talking to a child. Warrior drop outs are as likely to become merchants as laborers. FYI, 99.9999% of clan population use digital currency. So people of no importance make up MOST of the people. The majority of the people in MWO are mercs and they USE c-bills so your point is invalid. I will ALSO not be responding to inner sphere surats any longer. ALSO YOU CANNOT HAVE clan implementation of currency if you are still on this old point. It would be like the current free repair and re-arm WITH free weapons and mechs. The mech you would get is determined by your commanders. This will not be happening in MWO. EVER.

[Georgegad]

Naglinator, on 04 May 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

It's like talking to a child. Warrior drop outs are as likely to become merchants as laborers. FYI, 99.9999% of clan population use digital currency. So people of no importance make up MOST of the people. The majority of the people in MWO are mercs and they USE c-bills so your point is invalid. I will ALSO not be responding to inner sphere surats any longer. ALSO YOU CANNOT HAVE clan implementation of currency if you are still on this old point. It would be like the current free repair and re-arm WITH free weapons and mechs. The mech you would get is determined by your commanders. This will not be happening in MWO. EVER.

And now i have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The portion of the population that use credits are essentually non-people. Their jobs could just as easily be done by robots but it would be inhumane to simply kill off all the clones that fail warrior training, so they are given tasks to make themselves useful.

If you are puting forward some sort of social or moral commentary suggesting the clans should treat their disabled and incapable better, perhaps they should. Given the fact they are all simply clones and made soley for piloting mechs then it would be just as logical to throw the failures back into the protein tank and try again, so perhaps they should be happy they have been given a second chance at being.


If you are trying to make some statement about the game we are currently beta testing, then no, clan mechwarriors have no use for currency in any way. They simply have no need for it. As far as the game we are playing, when the clan invasion arrives they will not be bringing any form of money with them.



As for your talk on merchants also no, there is very little need for trade between clans and the population get there materials from a central supply. There are certainly people involved in the supply chain but they are not merchants as we understand the term, they facilitate the moving of goods. More like a government or military supply clerk than a merchant.
If someone did suddenly decide to become a merchant they could really only sell blackmarket goods, everything else a working class clan member would want comes from the government repository. The only goods they would find to sell would be second hand goods from the depository, or things stolen from the depository, or illicit products not stocked by the depository. In short they would eventually go bankrupt or be arrested.

Added:

Naglinator, on 04 May 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

.... FYI, 99.9999% of clan population use digital currency. ...

Also curious where you got that statistic. I do not believe it is correct. As i understand it he overwhelming majority of clan members are pilots, mechanics or scientists and involved in the mech fighting profession. The only people with other tasks flunked out of two or more of those professions and are considered mentally or physically disabled.

Edited by Georgegad, 05 May 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Daneel Hazen]

He is correct. The vast majority of the Clans are civilians. It could not work another way. Plastic requires oils and petrochem experts... metallugy skills and factories for metals... a LOT of stuff we use is simply very hard to produce but if you do it once you can do it a million times and make it cheaper. There is little scarcity in raw materials for us.. but on the clan worlds there is scarcity because the have to build all this backing infrastructure from scratch with a future ultimate goal of war being a given. I'll just type out the entire welfare section of the sourcebook that deals with non-warriors (fair use for commentary, no copyright issues... book is kind of rare).. I type fast and it a good way to increase your retention of details.

WELFARE

Welfare within the clans covers a wide range- food, housing, healthcare and so on. A basic tenet of Clan society is that the clan will support you if you support it. If you work, the Clan will feed clothe and house you. If you do not contribute the clan will cast you aside.

Every Clansman receives a "work target" and grade. Based on age, skills and caste the work target determines what constitutes a full day's work. For laborers and merchants, the target may be as simple as producing a certain number of items or making a certain level of profit. Targets for scientists and administrators get more complex and are frequently tied to longterm goals. An individual's grade determines the amount of credit available to him, with which he acquires clothing, food and accommodations. A person who exceeds his or her work target may receive an increase in grade to reward his performance. Likewise, those who perform consistently below target have their grades reduced, and may even be cast out of Clan society.
There are limits to the amount of work available within any given workgroup, and thus a limited amount of credit. Tese limts foster a sense of competition and unwillingness to carry extraneous personnel, maximizing the use of resources. Each work team must be large enough to carry out its task in allocated time, but beyond that civilian society resembles the military in seeking to do the work while expending the least resources. Consequently, hard work is an accepted part of life. The Clans do not understand shirking or laziness.
The civilian castes contain twenty-five grades, grade One being the lowest and Grade Twenty-Five the highest. In addition to acting like a pay scale this grading determines the individual's access to housing, transport, medical technology and a host of other amenities. Each grade also contains sub-categories that reflects the need of the individual. For example, a laborer, whose work is strenuous and physical labor, requires a higher caloric intake. That individual therefore receives a larger food allowance than a sedentary technician of the same grade. This difference is a simple recognition of different needs and reflects the Clan's desire to get the most from their workers.
Grade also determines accommodation with those higher grades given more spacious and luxurious housing. All except the most senior individuals live in apartment blocks- often drab, utilitarian structures whose design is similar throughout Clan space. Little distinguishes the accomodations of lower grades, save perhaps subtle differences in furniture. Higher grades live in blocks with larger homes and more facilities. However, by comparison to residences in the Inner Sphere, even the best are decidedly average.
Hard work is rewarded by an increase in grade, and thus remuneration. Team members are encouraged to report individuals who fail to meet their work allocation or who impeded the efforts of others.No Clan wants to carry dead weight, and so they make every effort to encourage the workers to perform well. Those who fail to comply are punished. In many ways, the Clans exemplify social and economic Darwinism- the strong prosper at the expense of the weak. As a corollary, there is no such thing as retirement in the Clans. With the exception of young children, everyone is expected to work (and even children work to some degree.) Work for school-age children takes the form of apprenticeships and vocational training to support theoretical knowledge gained in classes. The Clans find tasks suitable to the skills of the older people. If you don't work, you starve.

Despite their sophisticated medical technology, the mortality rate in Clan space is much higher than in the Inner Sphere, reflecting the harshness of Clan attitudes. It is in each Clan's best interest to keep its people fit and working, bu they run their health care systems as kind of a triage casing off those who do the least for the Clan in order to save resources for those who do more. For example, older people and those suffering critical injuries are less likely to receive treatment. This is especially true for low-skill manual workers where replacements are readily available. The more highly skilled individuals (usually reflected by a higher grade) are more likely to receive medical attention to prolong their usefulness. If it is more "cost effective" to replace an individual than to treat him, the Clans will do so.

Money per se is not part Clan life for the individual, though it does iexist. The Clans do not use cash, but have developed a two tier system to facilitate trade. The simplest level rewards the individual for work and allows him to acquire goods. The second level, used by the merchant class, applies to bulk trading.

Each Clansman receives a monthly credit allowance that he or she uses to claim food, clothing and other essentials. This work credit must be used within a set period- usually three months, to allow the acquisition of more expensive items. Unused credits are reclaimed by the clan, on the theory that a worker who does not use it obviously does not need it. This is the main distinction between work credit and pay as the Inner Sphere knows it. Pay belongs to the individual, to do with as he or she chooses. Work credit exists at the sufferance of the Clan and simply authorizes the transfer of goods between individuals. Ownership of the credit and any items bought with it remains with the Clan.

Edited by Miragezero, 05 May 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Daneel Hazen]

[Reserved space for Economics section in a bit. Breaktime.]

[Vassago Rain]

Georgegad, on 05 May 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

Also curious where you got that statistic. I do not believe it is correct. As i understand it he overwhelming majority of clan members are pilots, mechanics or scientists and involved in the mech fighting profession. The only people with other tasks flunked out of two or more of those professions and are considered mentally or physically disabled.

There are very few clan warriors, and the only ones that really matter are the bloodnames one, who are even fewer.

[Georgegad]

Miragezero, on 05 May 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

He is correct. The vast majority of the Clans are civilians.

Really 99.99%? If you are typing things out i would love to hear the bit where it says that. That would seem to give them a lower percentage of people in the military than some modern countries. A very odd thing for a warrior society.



"It could not work another way. Plastic requires oils and petrochem experts... metallugy skills and factories for metals"
I get the impression those things are automated in the high technology clan society. There are a caste of technicians who repair the tech but i got the impression there is minimal need for the types of people you mention.
If you really have some book reference saying those people do exist then i am happy to hear it, but if you are simply saying that they must exist because you have a hard time imagining a system where thay do not exist, then please stop. Clans are many thousand years into our future, they have as much use for a petrochem expert or a metallurgist as we have for a chimney sweep.



Also have to wonder why you would think there is a scarecity of materials. You have a book reference for that, or it is just an assumption? I was under the impression they were a space going civilization and would simply mine any of the other planets they have access to when they wanted more materials. There is no scarcity of worlds for them to mine, they have everything outside the IS.
I was under the impression their massive resources were one of the reasons they so dominated the innersphere. They had a wealth of planets outside the sphere and the IS only had the same old used up ones they had all been fighting over for centuries.


But you do seem to agree with me on the overall topic of the thread, so i suppose i will take it as a win..
" Money per se is not part Clan life for the individual, though it does iexist. "


.......................

Wait, i see the problem...........

"With the exception of young children, everyone is expected to work (and even children work to some degree.) Work for school-age children takes the form of apprenticeships and vocational training to support theoretical knowledge gained in classes."

You are talking about freebirths.

I was under the impression we were discussing mechwarrior and clans. Yes there is a peasant underclass that has developed but they are not really considered clansmen. They are freebirths and we consider them a problem or a waste product, and something to be dealt with, more than useful members of society. They dont actually do anything of benefit for the clan that the clan could not just as easily do without them.

Clan warriors are genetically engineered and dont go to school or apprenticeships or vocational training. They spend their early lives in a family group of a few dozen children doing physical training and studying mech tactics. As the individuals display a lack of mech piloting ability or an overwhealming talent for a technical field they move out of the group and into the science or technician cast to assist the warriors off the field. It is only if they also fail at their second job that they become labourers or other manual tasks to try to make themselves useful to the clan.

Edited by Georgegad, 05 May 2013 - 04:26 PM.