122 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Was sick of ECMs. This is a welcome change.

[MasterBLB]

Though I personally disagree both with current ECM implementation and BAP tweaks (check this) I can see a logic behind it.
Whatever bad can be said about ECM,there was one thing it helped with - before ECM the game was practically LRM Rains Online.ECM finished that,then with some tweaks to TAG LRM boats again became viable but it required some more effort and taking a bit risk (self-tagging) to be potent in battle.
So I suppose that is a reason why the devs are so unwilling for any deeper changes how ECM works.

The only fields where ECM imbalance is present now are IFF messing and light vs light fights due to preventing streaks' locks.The 1st issue will be addressed by changing how ECM works,and the 2nd - by tweaking BAP.

Though it is completely against canon,this makes sense:
1.Both ECM's and BAP's weight,critical slot size and price are the same.
2.Both devices requires just to be put into a mech with no futher effort to gain their advantages.
3.BAP is practically never used now.
4.ECM capable lights can sacrifice 2 crit slots and 1.5 weights to gain overwhelimng advantage (streak missiles) over these who can't.Now all lights can become viable again by making equal sacrifice.
5.ECM is still superior as it allows to sneak unnoticed and protects from LRMs...
6.But with improved BAP,when an friendly mech will be ambushed at flank now it will be possible to alarm the rest and see the ambushers.

[B0oN]

From me :

Get your hands on first, then tell us yer impressions.
Beforehand yarra-yarra never goes anywhere except pushing up expectations of all participants way too far.

[King Arthur IV]

i think its a good idea. weather or not its good or bad, we will only know once implemented. im happy they are at least trying something, i can only hope they put more faith into BETA testers and throw more at us instead of doing a ton of internal testing and trying to put out a perfect system.
have an idea, put a conservative model together and throw it out there then work on tweaks. if there are patches every two weeks, that is potentially a patch for a tweak eg. i am totally fine with under powered arty and air strike, as long as you tweak along the way. i dont under stand why everything needs to go through loads of internal testing.

if you want us to test, then make us test!!! just start small and work you way up to just right.

[Targetloc]

The change seems fundamentally wrong.

Maybe it will work out and be good for balance, which I'll be happy with, but it's now gone completely wonky from how the canon version of those modules are supposed to work.


ECM is supposed to be for close range. I don't think it ever stopped you from locking onto a mech in LOS in any of the TacOps or Total Warfare or whatever. Especially not at long range. You needed to be in close to an enemy mech to start messing it up with ECM.

BAP is supposed to be countered by ECM, but BAP itself (and other advanced tech) is supposed to provide advantages that make you want to take ECM just to jam them.


Things BAP does in the board game:
-Detect shutdown/hidden units
-Let you see an enemy mech's record sheet
-Detect if you are being jammed by ECM

Ways this could work in MWO:
-Detect shutdown units, and maybe very short range detection of units through buildings.
-Instant target information gathering, as well as showing an icon if they are XL engine, highlighting which HTAL sections contain ammo, showing numeric armor values (so you can spot people who skimp on leg or back armor) and their current speed.
-Show a blob on your map in the general direction of ECM mechs.


ECM should be jamming BAP, Artemis, target info sharing, indirect-fire without TAG and maybe penalizing lock-on times and max detection range.

[DocBach]

Targetloc, on 05 May 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

ECM should be jamming BAP, Artemis, target info sharing, indirect-fire without TAG and maybe penalizing lock-on times and max detection range.

Canon wise ECM did have a third mode that penalized lock on times, which Beagle countered. If they just moved ECM's missile defeating mode to a third mode, made beagle counter that, then gave beagle some utility like say the instant information and further information like a complete readout tied to a button that showed complete armor values/item location ect and had standard ECM disrupt mode jam against that the system would be much more deep and the two counter each other in different modes rather than the linear system PGI keeps giving us.

Beagle didn't get any new under these changes utility other than its the latest hard counter in a system that seems to now be a robot game designed around turning off ECM. Beagle still doesn't give us anymore information warfare, it doesn't provide information, its just another weapon in a long list of weapons to turn off this "perfectly implemented, working as intended, untouchable sacred cow ECM"

[Hammerfinn]

Obivously, we'll have to see how this plays out before we can give a definitive answer.

I think, theoretically, all canon aside, it looks like a good move on paper. I myself enjoy the hard counter/hard counter method of balancing, so that probably skews my view from many.

I primarily (in theory) like the move for two reasons:

For the same tonnage, all mechs can now counter the overwhelming advantage that ECM-enablement previously allowed.

This does not completely negate the usefulness of ECM, leaving it a niche where it is viable and powerful.

[DocBach]

Hammerfinn, on 05 May 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

I myself enjoy the hard counter/hard counter method of balancing, so that probably skews my view from many.

I guess this is where we differ - I don't think any player should be able to load up on twenty tons of missile launchers and then be completely locked out of the game by 1.5 tons of equipment. ECM as a soft counter that increases lock on time? Sure. ECM as a soft counter to radar which hides target information? Sure.

ECM as a complete missile lock out and stealth system? Nah, bad mechanic.

Especially when we're suppose to have equipment later on the timeline that specifically does what ECM does now in MWO.

[Asmudius Heng]

BAP is now an ECM tax.

To have effective streaks you pay a 1.5 ton tax to make sure you can use them.

BAP was always a god idea on LRM mechs though to get faster locks and will help them shoot other mechs while ECMer are close.

Still - rather than change ECM they are implement a tax on other mechs who want to stay effective in an ECM environment.

LRMs are still the suck and should not be forced to rely on TAG to allow them to shoot - as other have stated it will be interesting to see if SSRMs on boats make a big comeback. Though boated SRMs with host state rewind might just be better unless you are light hunting.

[SirLANsalot]

this is very good, as it relegates ECM to what its supposed to be. A defensive support item for covering your allies, and not as the offensive item it has become for lights.

having BAP nuke all ECM within 150 is a VERY good thing, now lights will need to sneak around the edges of fights and not "get up all in your grill". Lights are scouts, and this allows them to still scout and do there job, but it now also gives bigger mechs a defensive stance AGAINST ECM light mechs.

[J0anna]

Nik Reaper, on 03 May 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

After sitting on the throne for half an hour a thought occurred , lights and fast light mediums were never supposed to be brawlers, while 3 or more could down an assault 1 or 2 doing it seemed a bit unnatural, but most accepted it due to the fact that just hitting them was so difficult.
If you think about it what were lights supposed to do anyway? They go in to the front or flank and target things so you know in advance whats coming your way and mby lob some LRMs there way , they run to cap and fight other light and mediums they find on the way or in a full on engagement they run behind the foes and shoot out the rear armor, no where there is taking on a 30 ton heavier anti light hunter alone.

Though streaks really should also lock on to arm/leg joints, not just torso.

I think this really hits it on the head. ECM Lights are simply a bit too good in this game. Maybe not acting alone, but a group of 4 ECM lights working together on teamspeak or vent are still able to win a disproportionate amount of games. In addition to being able to sneak in to the enemy's base for a win. Avoiding damage by moving fast has always been superior to tanking damage. ECM Lights working together have become superior hunter-killers. And for those hoping to play in 8 man (or 12 man) groups, it simply doesn't pay to bring non-ECM lights along. Hopefully this change will bring other mechs into these matches.

This change (in reality) only effects one weapon - streaks. LRM's can't damage anything within 150m, and besides tag already helped LRM boats. For mechs packing SRM's and direct fire weapons, BAP is just added weight/crits. You could already hit/miss based on your ability - ECM didn't come into play. So really only streaks are helped by this, and in reality it just means if you want to use streaks against ECM mechs, you need to account for an extra 1.5 tons and 2 crits.

As the person above me said, light ECM mechs now have to decide if it's worth it to enter into combat with heavier mechs that might be carrying streaks and BAP, because they might win, but will probably get beat up doing it. Thus (to me) PGI is actually forcing light ecm mech pilots to be truer to TT and lore. They are not the main attack body, but instead are the eyes and ears, as well as the support mechs.

For those worrying about the return of the streak kitty, don't forget how helpless the streak kitty is on the larger maps. The game has shifted to more balanced builds, and long range are suppose to be deadly - the streak kitty will have it's place, but will most likely never be what it was (especially with the nerf to missile damage now in place).

The game's still under developement - lets try this change and see if it pans out. Already this change has me rebalancing builds and adjusting strategies to bring other mechs into play - and that's a good thing.

Edited by Moenrg, 05 May 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

DubBucket, on 02 May 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I don't people either! But yeah, as much as like that Jenners now have a more even playing field with Ravens, this will be the end of the Spider.

Yeah we will be right back to the old streak problem again. its a game mechanics problem, ssrm is the best light killer thus any light mech unable to take ssrm is inferior.

Now, if Jumpjets would be fast & powerful and really launch us into the air so we could dodge ssrm2s and have real mobility -

then it would be a different story. if ssrm2 didnt track so crazy well that would help too. missiles need more limited turn speeds and rates still.

[MustrumRidcully]

I find it not very awesome. It's all way too convoluted, IMO. They should make ECM less powerful, so it doesn't need multiple counters in the first place.

I voted "kinda awesome", because it's kinda awesome how long they stick to their guns. If it just was for an implementation detail that was worth the defense and tenacity, like "no 3rd person view" or "no coolant flush"...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 May 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[Yokaiko]

von Pilsner, on 02 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

I agree, but they won't let me put ECM on my Jenner. This seems like a reasonable counter to ECM.

More like light mechs.

Seriously, wait till the Jager-As with 4 SSRMs and the Streakcats come back out, it also makes for a couple interesting builds with the faster mediums, a la TBC-7M (and -3C) X-5 and whatnot.

I already have a stalker with 5 SSRMs on it, I use PPCs to disable ECM with that one, now I don't have to burn the heat. Its not going to pay to be under 65 tons when this goes live.

Edited by Yokaiko, 06 May 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

So to cancel ECM, you need one of the following.

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.
3) ECM of your own set to counter.
4) BAP.
5) UAV.
6) common sense and eyes.
7) sensor range upgrade.

Yeah, okay. And it's gonna be mounted in fixed locations.

So why did they add it if it's not gonna do anything?

[LordDante]

hercules1981, on 02 May 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Thank god for that what a pile of **** that mech is.

[MustrumRidcully]

Vassago Rain, on 06 May 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

So to cancel ECM, you need one of the following.

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.
3) ECM of your own set to counter.
4) BAP.
5) UAV.
6) common sense and eyes.
7) sensor range upgrade.

Yeah, okay. And it's gonna be mounted in fixed locations.

So why did they add it if it's not gonna do anything?

I think their game balance method is similar to how Australia dealt with rabbits...

Except in Australia, you couldn't remote the rabbits with an adjustment to their code...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 May 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[Jabilo]

Its all too simple rock paper scissors crap.

The whole way sensors, BAP and ECM work and synergise needs a complete overhaul - with active and passive sensors thrown in to the mix.

Ok you have standard sensors.

These can be improved with BAP, TAG, NARC, modules etc.

You can shield yourself and team mates (where appropriate) with ECM and by going passive.

These should all interact in a deep but common sense way, with detection ranges and lock on times getting higher and lower as the different systems play off each other.

Example, BAP allows you to detect and target opponents at longer ranges and helps achieve missile locks quicker. NO HARD COUNTERS.

However YOUR signal is also stronger, allowing you to be detected at longer ranges and for missiles to lock you more easily.

BAP can be toggled on and off as desired when installed.

ECM reduces the range that people can detect you and the time it takes them to lock missiles against you. BAP counters these to a certain extent but NO HARD COUNTERS (just adjustments to lock time and detection range).

BAP and ECM can both be used, giving you the benefit of BAP without all the draw backs, but obviously you pay the price in tonnage and critical slots. Of course you would not be as radar dark as if you ran ECM alone.

In addition passive sensors allow you to go dark, adjusting the ranges people can detect you and the time it takes them to achieve lock. This can be combined with ECM and countered with BAP.

Detection ranges and lock on times will adjust dynamically depending upon who has BAP and improved sensors, who has ECM, who has gone passive etc etc.

ECM, BAP and active sensors can all be toggled at any time in game (when installed) to allow you to fit your profile to the current battlefield condition.

The current and proposed system is lazy sticking plaster stuff. We are still in BETA so chuck it out the window and try something new.

[LordDante]

there u go ... Problem solved ! +1

[Yankee77]

Personally I think the proper solution would have been to remove the Disrupt bubble from ECM, so that only the stealth bubble remained. That way ECM would still hide mechs from sensors, but wouldn't screw up our radars and HUDs at close range.

This is pretty much what we're getting here, except the solution takes the form of yet ANOTHER item needed to fix the ECM imbalance. It would have been much better to just get rid of disrupt. That way ECM would have been a long-range item, without the need of loading 12908242 counters to make it long-range only.

BUT, if simply removing the disrupt bubble is not an option, then this is the next best thing.

Itkovian