16 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

In Battletech the concept of "brawling" does not mean that the mech is a dedicated short-ranged fighter. Rather it means that the mech is designed for sustained combat, rather than hit-and-run, long-ranged support, or sniping.

Thus a mech can be a brawler even if it mounts weapons with range longer than 270 meters. For example, in MWO some longer-range brawling weapons are large lasers, AC2s, AC10s and UAC5s. All of these weapons are better when you can sustain line of sight on the enemy because of beam duration or fire rate, but they're not only useful at point-blank range.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Now we know!

Brawling is still dead, though - how useful is sustained fire against an enemy which pops in and out of cover at will?

[TopDawg]

Unfortunately, where this game is concerned at least, those who can alpha (burst) and then torso twist to protect themselves (or in the current meta, are falling from the sky back behind cover) are much better off than those who need to stay square and facing the target the entire time (DPS/DOT; or weapons like the LL, AC/2, UAC/5, etc).

If cover is taken into consideration, which often times isn't that hard to achieve, the person with high burst is still going to come out on top because they can deal all their damage and then recede behind cover, whereas the person with the damage over time weapons won't be able to deal as much damage in the exchanges.

And I'm not saying map design is easy or anything, but the way the maps are designed entirely dictates what weapons people use, and, I guess, the terminology that evolves, which may be contrary to BattleTech conventions.

[AnnoyingCat]

slap on those ppc for close range fight

Edited by AnnoyingCat, 03 May 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[xDeityx]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

In Battletech the concept of "brawling" does not mean that the mech is a dedicated short-ranged fighter. Rather it means that the mech is designed for sustained combat, rather than hit-and-run, long-ranged support, or sniping.

Thus a mech can be a brawler even if it mounts weapons with range longer than 270 meters. For example, in MWO some longer-range brawling weapons are large lasers, AC2s, AC10s and UAC5s. All of these weapons are better when you can sustain line of sight on the enemy because of beam duration or fire rate, but they're not only useful at point-blank range.

Source?

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

In Battletech the concept of "brawling" does not mean that the mech is a dedicated short-ranged fighter. Rather it means that the mech is designed for sustained combat, rather than hit-and-run, long-ranged support, or sniping.

Thus a mech can be a brawler even if it mounts weapons with range longer than 270 meters. For example, in MWO some longer-range brawling weapons are large lasers, AC2s, AC10s and UAC5s. All of these weapons are better when you can sustain line of sight on the enemy because of beam duration or fire rate, but they're not only useful at point-blank range.

When you say sustained, you must be referring to heat, it is the only aspect of duration we have control over.
While brawling and sniping refer to the range of engagement.
Brawling = close range.
Sniping = long range.

however, brawling does require a closer attention to heat management, since you don't have as many options for defense, but a dedicated group of burst damage brawlers is more effective than sustained damage (heat efficient) brawlers because PGI made it so.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Lorcan Lladd, on 03 May 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Now we know!

[Hammerfinn]

I've always seen the "roles" assigned such:

Brawler = high damage, short(ish) range, high armor, front-lines slugger.

Flanker/Striker = fast, semi-support, short-range, hit-and-run.

Escort = slower medium/heavy that runs to peel lights and flankers off the brawlers/direct support

Direct Support = second line, high armor, high damage direct fire, can soak a bit, but not as much as a brawler

Indirect Support = behind everyone, missiles and defensive weapons

Sniper = long range, pinpoint damage

Scout/Harasser = SPEED, SPEED, SPEED

Got this is a thread somewhere at somepoint, don't remember where, but it's how I feel the terms are mostly used both on the forums and in-game, regardless of what BT canon says.

[Lefty Lucy]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brawler
"Brawler is a battlefield role performed by certain models of 'Mechs, primarily those that are slower and equipped with either long range weaponry or heavier amounts of armor."

Edited by Lefty Lucy, 05 May 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[Hammerfinn]

As I said, canon aside, this is how the terms are used. While I appreciate that the terms have shifted from canon BT use, this game is NOT a direct port of BT and the terminology has shifted in usage.

I hold a linguistics PhD: according to linguistic theory, when usage has sufficiently shifted, practical meaning has shifted, regardless of original intent. I respect that you want to return to original intent of the term: however, I think it has moved too far beyond that use to be useful or instructive.

[GoManGo]

MWO is just plain stupid for brawling you die so quick its just poop. The mechs are to slow and not armored enough to have fun in a big brawling type game. They should have named MWO (PaperMechWarriorOnline) or(PlowMechOnline) because the mechs move so slow.

[Mr 144]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

In Battletech the concept of "brawling" does not mean that the mech is a dedicated short-ranged fighter. Rather it means that the mech is designed for sustained combat, rather than hit-and-run, long-ranged support, or sniping.

Thus a mech can be a brawler even if it mounts weapons with range longer than 270 meters. For example, in MWO some longer-range brawling weapons are large lasers, AC2s, AC10s and UAC5s. All of these weapons are better when you can sustain line of sight on the enemy because of beam duration or fire rate, but they're not only useful at point-blank range.

Oh I'm in a mood tonight!

Show me a 'Brawling' Build.....and I'll show you a superior build in every weight class but light ( I don't play lights ) that is more effective in the meta by not brawling. Mediums are **** right now anyhow....so let's go with heavy/assault. Pin-point Alpha or go home right now. No sustained DPS build can mathematically or play-tested stand against them given relatively equal(ish) player skil and weight class. I've shown it many times in threads, but the sheep just want to 'bahhhh'

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 05 May 2013 - 10:50 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Mr 144, on 05 May 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Oh I'm in a mood tonight!

Show me a 'Brawling' Build.....and I'll show you a superior build in every weight class but light ( I don't play lights ) that is more effective in the meta by not brawling. Mediums are **** right now anyhow....so let's go with heavy/assault. Pin-point Alpha or go home right now. No sustained DPS build can mathematically or play-tested stand against them given relatively equal(ish) player skil and weight class. I've shown it many times in threads, but the sheep just want to 'bahhhh'

Mr 144

Sure, my original post isn't really about balance, but simply semantics.

[Mr 144]

Lefty Lucy, on 05 May 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Sure, my original post isn't really about balance, but simply semantics.

I can understand that...my preferred 'brawling build' uses LLs and an AC/20....all quite useful to 450m. The problem comes in when your 'brawling' build relies on SRMs or (shudder) other low max range weaponry. And that's MY point...there is no such thing as an acceptable less-than 270m 'brawling build in the current meta. Any 'good' brawling build extends it's range beyond 270m which defeats the point of this 'role'.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 05 May 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[Sephlock]

So "Brawler" translates to "Mayfly" in MW:O.

[Tesfurdo]

Hammerfinn, on 05 May 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

I've always seen the "roles" assigned such:

Brawler = high damage, short(ish) range, high armor, front-lines slugger.

Flanker/Striker = fast, semi-support, short-range, hit-and-run.

Escort = slower medium/heavy that runs to peel lights and flankers off the brawlers/direct support

Direct Support = second line, high armor, high damage direct fire, can soak a bit, but not as much as a brawler

Indirect Support = behind everyone, missiles and defensive weapons

Sniper = long range, pinpoint damage

Scout/Harasser = SPEED, SPEED, SPEED

Got this is a thread somewhere at somepoint, don't remember where, but it's how I feel the terms are mostly used both on the forums and in-game, regardless of what BT canon says.

BURN THE HERETIC!!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG

[Denolven]

It's not as complicated as many people think. A brawler is what the name suggests: someone/thing that can take a beating and give a beating. No more, no less.
Everything else is a consequence of balancing and personal flavors. Abilities are not defined by the role - the role is defined by the abilities. If my Mech is both tough and strong, I am a brawler. And if I can do other things as well, I fit into multiple roles, as simple as that.

The brawler = melee myth comes from the fact that in many games the tough+strong avatars have their major weakness in large range combat or mobility for balance reasons. It's a correlation, not a causality.

Striker - can hit really hard
Tank - is really tough
Skirmisher/Flanker - is fast

A brawler is a tank/striker hybrid. It's somewhat like base attributes. When you combine those basics with certain equipment/skill configurations, more specialized terms are derived. A sniper for example is a striker that has weaknesses in melee and thus prefers long range combat. Anvil and hammer are melee versions of tank and striker, and so on.

Edited by Denolven, 06 May 2013 - 09:35 AM.