35 replies to this topic

[FrostCollar]

Igor Draskovic, on 04 May 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Be that as it may, lights still outrun LRM's much too easily and with the massive damage nerf they are dead weight.

They're not outrunning them, per se, the LRMs target their current position instead of using intercept guidance and eventually can't turn fast enough to avoid the ground.

So you're really asking for a LRM turning buff and/or intercept-style guidance.

Edited by FrostCollar, 04 May 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[jeffsw6]

I have piloted an LRM70 Stalker in several dozen PUG drops over the past few days. I really don't know what to think of the LRM problem. This load-out is honestly a reasonable mech to use, and I have many matches where I have the most dmg and most kills on my team. That's with missiles super-nerfed and almost everyone on the forum agreeing that they need a fairly substantial buff.

My fear is that the LRM60+ builds will become dominant again if missiles are buffed very much, and yet, it still won't be useful to carry one LRM launcher as a utility weapon for suppression / harassing / anti-sniper jobs. If they are buffed enough that anyone is really afraid of 10 or 15 missiles then the LRM70 Stalker will be one-shotting mediums.

Most people seem to base their opinion of whether or not LRMs are effective, upon the performance of the Catapult LRM boat. That mech is ****. There is a huge difference between firing 40 or 45 missiles at one time, and 70 of them. AMS is going to kill about the same amount of missiles, but there are almost twice as many coming in; so you take way more damage.

Also the CPLTs blow because you can't put a tag on your arm. That means you can't tag an enemy who is down-hill or up-hill from your position because your torso won't articulate that far.

Something needs to be done to the LRM15 and LRM20, raise their tons or slots or something; or reduce LRM ammo/ton. If you don't believe me, go make a Stalker with LRM70 (it can still hold some lasers, too!) and play a few matches. If you are any good at using a tag it is stupidly effective, even with today's meta.

[Kitane]

Yep, lights do not outrun missiles, they outrun misille tracking ability. As a pilot of LRM Catapults, I cried a little yesterday when I saw Awesome with 50 tubes as a spectator, Artemis and Tag raining death on a Jenner.

No cover, well inside range (cca 400m away), the target was TAGed, Artemis bonus active and 50 LRMs were shaving 1-2% per salvo. Visually most of them were hitting his legs and lower rear torso, but it just didn't register. I wonder if that will be solved by MSR.

The only way to deal with tracking issue is a borderline exploit with breaking and reacquiring the lock.

Edited by Kitane, 04 May 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

hammerreborn, on 03 May 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

AND MATH WILL SET YOU FREE!!

I was told there would be no math.

Thank god I came anyway.

jeffsw6, on 04 May 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

I have piloted an LRM70 Stalker in several dozen PUG drops over the past few days. I really don't know what to think of the LRM problem. This load-out is honestly a reasonable mech to use, and I have many matches where I have the most dmg and most kills on my team. That's with missiles super-nerfed and almost everyone on the forum agreeing that they need a fairly substantial buff.

My fear is that the LRM60+ builds will become dominant again if missiles are buffed very much, and yet, it still won't be useful to carry one LRM launcher as a utility weapon for suppression / harassing / anti-sniper jobs. If they are buffed enough that anyone is really afraid of 10 or 15 missiles then the LRM70 Stalker will be one-shotting mediums.

Most people seem to base their opinion of whether or not LRMs are effective, upon the performance of the Catapult LRM boat. That mech is ****. There is a huge difference between firing 40 or 45 missiles at one time, and 70 of them. AMS is going to kill about the same amount of missiles, but there are almost twice as many coming in; so you take way more damage.

Also the CPLTs blow because you can't put a tag on your arm. That means you can't tag an enemy who is down-hill or up-hill from your position because your torso won't articulate that far.

Something needs to be done to the LRM15 and LRM20, raise their tons or slots or something; or reduce LRM ammo/ton. If you don't believe me, go make a Stalker with LRM70 (it can still hold some lasers, too!) and play a few matches. If you are any good at using a tag it is stupidly effective, even with today's meta.

I suppose the biggest problem of using an LRM as a "side weapon" is that it works so differently from direct fire weapons. And that it has advantages that it rightfully has to pay for - being able to fire indirectly - but you can't really utilize if you mix it with direct fire weapons.

It's kinda messy to balance this.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 May 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[jeffsw6]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 May 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

I suppose the biggest problem of using an LRM as a "side weapon" is that it works so differently from direct fire weapons. And that it has advantages that it rightfully has to pay for - being able to fire indirectly - but you can't really utilize if you mix it with direct fire weapons.

Indeed it is hard. I have one LRM15 on my brawling Stalker just to harass / anti-snipe. It's not killing anyone but I can often make an enemy sniper hide for long enough to move from one cover to another (not if there are like 5 snipers though, which is typical anymore.)

It would be neat if this was accomplished using different projectile speeds per launcher-type. For example, an LRM5's missiles would be extremely fast but an LRM15 / LRM20 would launch slower missiles. This would effectively make the small launchers good utility weapons but the big ones, that are used for boating, would remain fairly easy to dodge.

[Victor Morson]

Why are we arguing this still?

On the 28th LRMs will get damage back, get HSR and a 20% speed buff. Looking forward to 28th, national Missile Day here on MW:O!

(Seriously, I've missed missiles.)

[Tesfurdo]

When I'm in my spider (110kph) I don't even blink when I see "Incoming Missile" flash up... when I'm in my Muromets doing 86kph... I don't even blink. Unless your a slow *** mech then lrm's aren't even a concern because the vast majority of the time you can shift position behind cover before the 2nd volley of missiles has left the enemies racks.

Should they be faster? Yes... much faster. But I really do feel like they pack enough of a punch!

[MustrumRidcully]

jeffsw6, on 04 May 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Indeed it is hard. I have one LRM15 on my brawling Stalker just to harass / anti-snipe. It's not killing anyone but I can often make an enemy sniper hide for long enough to move from one cover to another (not if there are like 5 snipers though, which is typical anymore.)

It would be neat if this was accomplished using different projectile speeds per launcher-type. For example, an LRM5's missiles would be extremely fast but an LRM15 / LRM20 would launch slower missiles. This would effectively make the small launchers good utility weapons but the big ones, that are used for boating, would remain fairly easy to dodge.

That's an interesting idea actually. But it might not mesh with the concept behind some of the "stock configs". For example, the Atlas uses an LRM20 as a "side weapon", which by your methodology is more something for a boat.

Maybe it should be a setting? You can switch get +25 % missile speed for -25 % missile cooldown by flipping a switch, or something like that. SO you have the choice to either deliver a massive barrage of missiles, or launch a quick strike.

Of course, that#s one of the things about missiles - I kinda wish indirect and direct-fire situations were made more unique. Direct-Fire could for example involve no lock - just point the reticule, press fire, and the missile aim for the location you aimed at (but spreading out, no pinpoint precision). This would make it easier to use LRMs together with other weapons. But if you want to fire indirectly, you need a lock. And you need to relock every time the missiles have reloaded.

[Trauglodyte]

Rhent, on 03 May 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Its fairly easy to fix the LRM problem with lights. Set LRM speed to 155 KPH. At that speed, if a light mech is within 300M, and a LRM is launched at them in the open, they simply can't turn around and run at max speed and take ZERO damage.

You realize that 155kph = 43m/s right genius?

[Rebas Kradd]

Rhent, on 03 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Being able to completely outrun a weapon system isn't a "game feature", its a bug.

This kind of logic is exactly why people have unrealistic expectations for the game. Have you never stopped to think that some weapons are supposed to be situational?

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 04 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Why are we arguing this still?

On the 28th LRMs will get damage back, get HSR and a 20% speed buff. Looking forward to 28th, national Missile Day here on MW:O!

(Seriously, I've missed missiles.)

I didn't see anything anywhere about missiles getting a damage or HSR buff on the 27th patch. Don't think that's happening sorry, it's just the 20% speed increase as far as I am aware.

[Kiiyor]

Rhent, on 03 May 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Its fairly easy to fix the LRM problem with lights. Set LRM speed to 155 KPH. At that speed, if a light mech is within 300M, and a LRM is launched at them in the open, they simply can't turn around and run at max speed and take ZERO damage.

The problem you're talking about sounds like an issue on paper, but falls down in practice. No light pilot will run away from missiles in a dead straight line, or else some enterprising ANYONE WITH WEAPONS will smash them in their balsa wood behinds with the awesome power of HYPOTENUSE.

[TB Freelancer]

Kitane, on 04 May 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Yep, lights do not outrun missiles, they outrun misille tracking ability. As a pilot of LRM Catapults, I cried a little yesterday when I saw Awesome with 50 tubes as a spectator, Artemis and Tag raining death on a Jenner.

No cover, well inside range (cca 400m away), the target was TAGed, Artemis bonus active and 50 LRMs were shaving 1-2% per salvo. Visually most of them were hitting his legs and lower rear torso, but it just didn't register. I wonder if that will be solved by MSR.

And that's exactly why 20% speed increase and state rewind would do the trick with missiles. Right now they're just missing small, faster targets by a hair, it really doesn't need much.

Also, they're doing some substantial recoding of how they fly and target mechs, it will be interesting to see how it all turns out.

[B0oN]

Rhent, on 03 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Being able to completely outrun a weapon system isn't a "game feature", its a bug.

You are wrong.
Very very very wrong.
But it is ok.
Opinions and such

[jeffsw6]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 May 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

That's an interesting idea actually. But it might not mesh with the concept behind some of the "stock configs". For example, the Atlas uses an LRM20 as a "side weapon", which by your methodology is more something for a boat.

I think a setting would make the LRMs too useful. It should just be per launcher-type.

I don't think the stock load-outs are really worth evaluating when discussing weapon balance. Most of the stock mechs don't even have DHS and some have like half armor. An LRM20 isn't really a side-weapon, either; it's a 10 ton launcher and I think the Atlases have like 2 tons of LRM ammo as well. It's 12 tons of stupid, that's what it is.

A stock mech that correctly equips an LRM as a side-weapon is the FLAME. It has an LRM5 and one ton of ammo (3 tons total.) Three other Dragon variants have an LRM10 and two tons ammo, which is a bit much (7 tons.)

If the LRM5 had a very fast speed then the FLAME's LRM5 would be pretty good. A Stalker mounting 5xLRM5 would also be pretty good. However, it would not deal so much damage that you would be likely to solo opponents with that one weapon system. The 5xLRM5 Stalker would probably be something like a laser-based brawler, using his LRMs for fighting or suppressing enemies at further range; or combining 4xLRM15 with 1xLRM5 to give him a way to keep his enemy off-balance.

IMO this is the best way to make LRMs into a utility weapon that can also be boated, but not boated so effectively that it dominates the meta-game again.

[Roland]

Rhent, on 03 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Being able to completely outrun a weapon system isn't a "game feature", its a bug.

In order to do that, you'd have to run exactly parallel to their flight path, until you are at the max range of LRM's.

It's not quite as trivial as you seem to think.