73 replies to this topic

[RG Notch]

stjobe, on 04 May 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

"Where's the enemy?"
"Dunno man, fire the drone"
"Oh, there they are, okay let's plod over and PPC 'em".

Wow so that's what you imagine a light mech's role to be, no wonder you see them so easily replacable.

[stjobe]

RG Notch, on 08 May 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Wow so that's what you imagine a light mech's role to be, no wonder you see them so easily replacable.

I don't recall saying that was the only role for a light.

It is, however, a role that light 'mechs traditionally fill, and even though it's not a very needed nor rewarding role in the current MWO, it will still be somewhat diluted by the UAV consumable.

To be perfectly honest, the only real role in MWO is that of damage dealer, and lights are at a serious disadvantage in that role compared to the other weight classes. That's why I don't like consumables or equipment that directly reduces the light roles even more. If I had my way, MWO would have proper scout roles à la Dev Blog 4, and also reward doing them properly - that way lights wouldn't have to fill the damage dealer role but could leave that to those better suited for it.

[RG Notch]

stjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

I don't recall saying that was the only role for a light.

stjobe, on 04 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Don't forget about the UAV consumable - it's a light 'mech replacement altogether.

It's like the devs don't want anyone to play lights.

Really, looks like someone logged in under your account and posted that other post that says pretty much that eh?

[zraven7]

So, not the Stalker will know EXACTLY where I am behind him the whole time he can't spin fast enough to face me.

...

The game is helping me troll assaults.

[stjobe]

RG Notch, on 08 May 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Really, looks like someone logged in under your account and posted that other post that says pretty much that eh?

Damn kids, always using my computer...

Nah, you're right. It was a poorly worded post, it should probably have said "a scout replacement" instead of "a light 'mech replacement".

I mainly play lights (Commandos and later Spiders - the heaviest 'mechs I own apart from my founder 'mechs is my Centurions), and have since I joined closed beta in August, so I'm fully aware of the jobs a light can and cannot do.

[Gaan Cathal]

Tincan Nightmare, on 05 May 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

And I don't understand your concern about locking tonnage in to TT values, unless you mean weapon tonnage with your concern about a viable light ballistic option (though the announced increase to MG damage, though minor, is a step in that direction). Since the tonnage for all other equipment has stayed the same from TT, it would be a massive job to redesign all of the mechs to compensate for suddenly lighter ballistics as you would have to account for the extra tonnage freed up. And if you make them lighter, do you also make them take less critical slots? Also clan AC's and gauss are already lighter and more compact, so do you further reduce their tonnage requirements to keep the balance that clan tech is superior? They could bend the rules a little and bring the light AC's into the game much sooner than the timeline allows, or maybe just change the hardpoints on the two mechs effected by this (spider and cicada with 4 ballistic hardpoints), since it would be easier to change two mechs than all the ones that carry ballistics as standard.

Apologies, wrote the prior post on my phone and thus the formatting (or lack thereof) makes it somewhat unclear. The complaint about tonnage-locking is actually seperate from the anaemic MG complaint. Hopefully the MG will eventually hit ~1.2 dps or 1 dps with a less ridiculous spread. A good example of my complaint with locked tonnage is the Pulse Laser line. At the moment the MPL is a nice alternative to the ML. It has a tad more damage, and a better firing pattern, for shorter range and a tad more heat. The problem is, that isn't worth doubling the tonnage cost of your lasers. If you're looking at high tonnage mechs then their low number of hardpoints relative to tonnage makes LL more attractive - note that LPL have a much better tonnage relationship with the LL than the MPL with the ML and actually see some use. For lower tonnage mechs, they're too squeezed for tonnage to warrant MPL. If MPL cost 1.5 or even 1 ton they'd be viable and balanced. Frankly, the range/heat considerations fairly well balance the damage/firetime increase in my opinion. What they don't do is warrant doubling the weight (note I'm talking about the MWO realtime situation here). Now they might make MPL more viable by tinkering with damage, heat, maybe even range. But frankly they'll need a lot of work to be worth twice the tonnage of a ML, and probably become borderline overpowered in the process. However, a tonnage reduction with retention of current stats would make them slot in perfectly. But it won't happen, because tonnage was designated sacrosanct early in development because (terribly unsuited for real-time play in general) stock builds have to work.

Tincan Nightmare, on 05 May 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

In regards to assaults, they have always been portrayed as the biggest and toughest mechs with the most firepower. Even previous MW titles have always made it very tough to challenge an assault with anything but another assault. In the TT this was balanced with high battle values and high cost, but they were very deadly and hard to kill. Now you say that the role of a light mech should be as an anti-assault unit, to go and hunt Atlai and Stalkers. This is very similar to sending destroyers to sink battleships, or maybe humvees to assault tanks. If lights are to be the natural predators of assault mechs, then should assault mechs cost 3 times as much in c-bills? The whole concept of role warfare as originally stated by PGI was to give lights a purpose, such as information warfare, not to make them the answer to assault mechs. If there were more game modes (and larger maps) that made speed more valuable than armor and firepower, more lights and mediums would be used.

From a conceptual perspective, I'll re-purpose your naval example. Destroyer (medium), kills the submarine (light) which kills the battleship (assault). Or to use airwarfare, agile fighters used to take down bombers. It's easy to logically rationalise the fast, low profile unit hunting the slow, low tracking unit - which is what happened until a while ago in the light-assault relationship. The game more or less looked to be set up as a Assault>Heavy>Medium>Light>Assault cycle, with the notable problem that they made Mediums dreadful.

Why should this be the case from a gameplay perspective? Because it's an 8v8 arena shooter with a throttle. Potentially 12v12. BV means nothing. The cost to acquire the mech is, effectively, trivial and currently balances out the far superior earning power of the assault mech (since we're paid by the hitpoint at the moment). Under those circumstances, where you do not take xxBV of mechs, you take 8, having a class of mech superior to all others means that that is the only class of mech. The only time that would ever work is a BV-rated game with a far larger number of potential pilots. What would then happen is that whatever light or medium mech has the best alpha-to-BV ratio would be the only mech because in a game where you have our locational damage system and aiming, two of anything (MG spiders not withstanding) > one of anything else, with a dramatic multiplicative effect.

[KuruptU4Fun]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Well that entirely depends on how the sensor works. If it is speed based then maybe. But if its any walking then it's going to detect you irregardless, preventing any sneaky hobittses from walking behind an enemy team and spotting.

Then let's hope it's more of a meta game module and relies on speed.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 08 May 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

My hope would be that the module's range would be dependent on three things.

1 - How heavy is the mech that is moving? An Atlas will be spotted much further away than a Flea. This should establish base detection range. Just throwing out rough numbers, say 50m for a Flea and 250m for an Atlas.

2 - How fast is the target mech moving? A slow, careful approach should make less noise (ground vibration) than a fast, reckless one. This should modify base range compared to specific targets. Again, rough numbers might look like 300m for a 60kph Atlas, or 60m for a 150kph Flea.

3 - Is the mech with the module moving? If you're moving yourself, your module will be pretty well overwhelmed by the vibrations caused by your own ride. This should modify base range generally. It should scale similarly to the above two modifiers, but at a reduced rate (since it's general). If you're in an Atlas moving 60 kph +, your base range on your sensor might be cut by as much as half. On the other hand, if you're in a Flea and only moving 25 kph then it should be reduced by as little as five percent or thereabouts.

Obviously PGI would have to play with the numbers to make it useful but not overpowered, and to give players real options for trying to deal with it.

[Mr Andersson]

stjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Scouting? You mean like the PPC-toting Panther?
"The Panther operates as a direct fire support 'Mech for other light units."

Or the Gauss Rifle-mounting Hollander?
"The Hollander was introduced in 3054 specifically to carry a Gauss Rifle into combat and act as a sniper."

No, you must clearly be talking about some of the 'mechs that are in MWO, like the Commando?
"the Commando's profile was radically changed with the introduction of the sophisticated COM-2D variant in 2486, that exchanged the laser weaponry with short range missiles and turned the machine into a striker. With four tons the armor is too light to allow a stand-up fight with heavier enemies, but it excels at hit-and-run tactics and as a scout hunter."

No? The Jenner then, surely it's a scout?
"The Jenner's primarily laser armament and phenomenal speed helped to make the the 'Mech extremely well suited as a guerilla fighter."

What IS this? Raven. That's a Scout, right? Well, the 3L is. Not so much the 2X or 4X:
"RVN-2X - Many of the Ravens captured by the Federated Suns in the Fourth Succession War were refitted to the 2X standard. It replaces the EW equipment with a Large Laser and adds an additional two and a half tons of armor."
"RVN-4X - A Capellan variant of the original prototype, the -4X was an attempt to turn the chassis into a pure combat unit."

But the Spider, that HAS to be a Scout, right? Wrong:
"The Spider was originally designed by Newhart Industries as a 'Mech to be used by SLDF commando forces [...] Spiders are generally used as fast strike forces to hit an enemy's rear with lightning speed."


So there you have it. One variant of one chassis - the RVN-3L - is a Scout. The others are not. Perhaps you should try playing one just for "scouting, spotting, distraction and such" and see how fun it is and how much CB/XP it gets you.

And remember - speed and mobility versus armour and firepower should be an equal fight, not a foregone conclusion. The better pilot should win, not the heavier 'mech.

Really nice story. But it's all just a bunch of flavor texts. And it doesn't counter my main point - that lights are ridiculously overpowered.

[redlance]

the light game has already suffered in the current meta. this really just makes the most pleasurable and skill based play style for light mech's in-viable, since we rely on trickery and stealth to be successful.

Mr Andersson, on 08 May 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Really nice story. But it's all just a bunch of flavor texts. And it doesn't counter my main point - that lights are ridiculously overpowered.

hearing you say this with the current meta as it is. just wow.

[FunkyFritter]

My main concern with this is that currently there's no way to know what modules someone has equipped until it's too late. If something has a big enough impact to change the way I play I need to know it exists before I can respond to it. Tiptoeing around every enemy mech because they may or may not have a specific module equipped doesn't sound good for gameplay.

[stjobe]

Mr Andersson, on 08 May 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Really nice story. But it's all just a bunch of flavor texts. And it doesn't counter my main point - that lights are ridiculously overpowered.

When was the last time you played a light?

Please, enlighten us, which of the following 'mechs are "ridiculously overpowered":

COM-1B
COM-1D
COM-2D
COM-DK

SDR-5D
SDR-5K
SDR-5V

JR7-D
JR7-F
JR7-F(c)
JR7-K

RVN-2X
RVN-3L
RVN-4X

Come on, don't be shy, tell us. I bet there's a lot of people looking for a new ride, and a "ridiculously overpowered" one would probably please them.

[Jonathan Paine]

I think my main objection to lights is this: the need for some pilots to have game mechanics make up for their inability to solo kill the entire enemy team. A light mech is not meant to win a stand up fight within 90 meters with an assault. Or a heavy. Or a medium. That there are some exceptional pilots out there that can still pull this off solo - kudos to you!

For the rest of the light mechs: adapt or die.

[Gaan Cathal]

Jonathan Paine, on 08 May 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I think my main objection to lights is this: the need for some pilots to have game mechanics make up for their inability to solo kill the entire enemy team. A light mech is not meant to win a stand up fight within 90 meters with an assault. Or a heavy. Or a medium. That there are some exceptional pilots out there that can still pull this off solo - kudos to you!

For the rest of the light mechs: adapt or die.

Er?

We're objecting to the need for some pilots to have game mechanics make up for their inability to not get out maneuvered and snuck up on. Apparently, people that equate a light mech having a chance to kill someone by ambush with "kill the entire enemy team".

Funny how it's "adapt or die" when you're the one who apparently needs to stack 360^o detection modules for fear that there might be four medium lasers and a couple SRMs out of view.

[DeaconW]

FunkyFritter, on 08 May 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

My main concern with this is that currently there's no way to know what modules someone has equipped until it's too late. If something has a big enough impact to change the way I play I need to know it exists before I can respond to it. Tiptoeing around every enemy mech because they may or may not have a specific module equipped doesn't sound good for gameplay.

Actually that sounds awesome for gameplay...unless you are trying to keep the Raven 3L OPness continuing...ever heard of "fog of war"? I suppose you also don't like knowing the makeup of the enemy force at the beginning of the match either...and Wow, the time between spotting a mech and the paperdoll popping up must drive you simply *nuts*...

stjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

When was the last time you played a light?

Please, enlighten us, which of the following 'mechs are "ridiculously overpowered":

COM-1B
COM-1D
COM-2D
COM-DK

SDR-5D
SDR-5K
SDR-5V

JR7-D
JR7-F
JR7-F©
JR7-K

RVN-2X
RVN-3L
RVN-4X

Come on, don't be shy, tell us. I bet there's a lot of people looking for a new ride, and a "ridiculously overpowered" one would probably please them.

I wouldn't use the term "ridiculously"...but there are ones that are OP...The ones with ECM, especially the Raven 3L...which currently has hitbox issues that act as a shield. I know this because I can routinely get in the top 3 scores in a match with a COM-2D...this shouldn't happen. I am not that good. I won't pilot a 3L...too much self-respect and all.

[stjobe]

Jonathan Paine, on 08 May 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

A light mech is not meant to win a stand up fight within 90 meters with an assault. Or a heavy. Or a medium.

A light 'mech that's in a stand-up fight with anything is doing it wrong; never pick a fair fight in a light.

However, a light 'mech played to its strengths - speed and mobility - should have an even chance against anything heavier playing to its strengths - usually armour and firepower - given equal pilot skill. If the heavier 'mech can't hit the light due to good piloting and smart positioning, the light should win the fight. If the light cannot take advantage of its superior speed and mobility, the heavier 'mech should win the fight.

It's all about making sure tonnage isn't the sole determining factor of a fight - pilot skill should be what decides the outcome, not 'mech tonnage. Otherwise, what's the use of anything lighter than an Atlas?

[DeaconW]

stjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

It's all about making sure tonnage isn't the sole determining factor of a fight - pilot skill should be what decides the outcome, not 'mech tonnage.

This statement is a contradiction...I agree with the first part but no amount of pilot skill should truly compensate for a 70 ton mismatch unless the heavier mech is deaf, dumb and blind...again, I drive a COM-2D from time to time...and i think it is still a little OP. HSR rewind definitely helped even things up a lot...but the Raven 3L still has some kind of magical shield(i.e. bug) from my experience...

[Gaan Cathal]

DeaconW, on 08 May 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

but the Raven 3L still has some kind of magical shield(i.e. bug) from my experience...

This got fixed. Quite some time ago. Lagshield is gone, hitbox error has been normalised and HSR is in for all non-missile weapons. You are just missing.

With that said, your central argument is flawed. If tonnage is the determining factor of victory, why bring anything less than 100 tons? It's not like you have a lower BV cost associated with the light mech here. It'd just be worse. The resource here is not BV, it's pilots. Given as any of those 8 pilots on a team can pilot any mech they wish with no tonnage restrictions, tonnage advantage = 8 Assaults vs 8 Assaults. That's dull, pointless and terrible game design.

[FunkyFritter]

DeaconW, on 08 May 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Actually that sounds awesome for gameplay...unless you are trying to keep the Raven 3L OPness continuing...ever heard of "fog of war"? I suppose you also don't like knowing the makeup of the enemy force at the beginning of the match either...and Wow, the time between spotting a mech and the paperdoll popping up must drive you simply *nuts*...

If you want to know the enemy composition you can scout. If you want to know your target's loadout you can maintain a lock until you have that information. The only way to see if an enemy is equipped with eyes in the back of their head is to attempt a flank and hope they don't, that's the issue with modules that change how you play.

Edited by FunkyFritter, 08 May 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[stjobe]

DeaconW, on 08 May 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

This statement is a contradiction...I agree with the first part but no amount of pilot skill should truly compensate for a 70 ton mismatch unless the heavier mech is deaf, dumb and blind...

So, you're basically saying that no matter the pilot skill, a Commando or Spider should ALWAYS LOSE to an Atlas? No matter that they both have the speed and agility to constantly be *behind* the Atlas?

Sorry, but that's an idiotic way to balance a game.

DeaconW, on 08 May 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

again, I drive a COM-2D from time to time...and i think it is still a little OP. HSR rewind definitely helped even things up a lot...but the Raven 3L still has some kind of magical shield(i.e. bug) from my experience...

It's funny that the ones saying "lights are OP" are usually the ones that - if they've ever piloted a light at all - have only piloted the ECM+Streak variants... You don't think it might be something besides the 'mech that's the overpowering factor here?

Edited by stjobe, 08 May 2013 - 04:39 PM.