179 replies to this topic

[Child3k]

jeffsw6, on 05 May 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

If the base capture mechanics on Assault mode are not changed, the game will eventually devolve into base-camping. It's already starting to happen.

Is it? Because I can't get the players in my pug-games to stay back at base to just defend ...

[Alucard291]

Atheus, on 10 May 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

I suppose the amusing aspect of this is that in terms of debate you've essentially abandoned any pretense of reasoned argument and now act like the purpose of the forums is merely for people to amuse you. I suppose the best option is to go ahead and resume ignoring you. This is the third time you've retreated from me just as soon as the fire got too hot for you to handle with the pretense that you're just above the conversation. "Self-aggrandizement" lol. Look in a mirror, guy.

You had no argument to begin with except "MOMMY I WANNA WALK MAH WOBOTZ AT EACH OTHER AND ALLAYZ WIN!"

So you now expect a reasonable response?

Ok here it is:

Grow up.

[Ghogiel]

I hope the poll results are people saying 'no never' when they get capped.

^that's what makes it the most fun way to beat people.

If they get buttmad as well, I have to go fap to express my joy

[Atheus]

Alucard291, on 22 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

You had no argument to begin with except "MOMMY I WANNA WALK MAH WOBOTZ AT EACH OTHER AND ALLAYZ WIN!"

So you now expect a reasonable response?

Ok here it is:

Grow up.

12 days later and this is what you come up with?

Wow.

8 posts into your FWO career and you're already rolling out posts like this. You're a natural.

[-Muta-]

After playing over 1500 matches one of the things that I have learned is that there are always players out there (like me) that wait until the enemy has gotten their position in the map to RUSH to cap their base.

The reason behind this is that I do it because once the fight is going on you really need to have your mechs fighting and not going back to their base.

What happens...?

They come back to their base to prevent me from capping and surprise! They get to the base and you find 1 raven, 1 Cicada X5 and a Jenner. Most likely the person that came back will die.

If no one comes we leave it at a 99% captured to guarantee a win and go back to fight.

It is all about strategy and tactics. That is why scouting is SO IMPORTANT.

Edited by Mutaroc, 24 May 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Atheus]

Mutaroc, on 24 May 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

After playing over 1500 matches one of the things that I have learned is that there are always players out there (like me) that wait until the enemy has gotten their position in the map to RUSH to cap their base.

The reason behind this is that I do it because once the fight is going on you really need to have your mechs fighting and not going back to their base.

What happens...?

They come back to their base to prevent me from capping and surprise! They get to the base and you find 1 raven, 1 Cicada X5 and a Jenner. Most likely the person that came back will die.

If no one comes we leave it at a 99% captured to guarantee a win and go back to fight.

It is all about strategy and tactics. That is why scouting is SO IMPORTANT.

And what do you do about Mutaroc B who is doing the exact same thing to your base?

[Razor1611]

There should be an option like:


How often you to attempt to capture a base before engaging the enemy in combat?

"i tag, but do not carry through with the cap to cause an diversion"

[Atheus]

Razor1611, on 24 May 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

There should be an option like:


How often you to attempt to capture a base before engaging the enemy in combat?

"i tag, but do not carry through with the cap to cause an diversion"

Hardly a necessary distinction. The only reason the "diversion" might work is because your enemy has to assume you're there to fully capture the base. If you're not going to follow through on that threat, and the enemy calls the bluff (or doesn't care to bother with a capwarrior), your presence in your own team is wasted for the duration of time you spend doing anything besides what you presumably want to be doing if you're just bluffing, which is fighting to the death.

[Downpoison]

I have to admit that I am fairly new to MWO and that I have only a couple of hundred games under my belt but I am starting to see the sides being drawn here and both seem to be valid.

Regardless of what you think of the poll if it is valid or not (amazingly the people who thought it wasn't valid also disagreed with Atheus opinion...hmm go figure), there is one thing that can be seen from the information that the results given and that is this: There is a large percentage of ppl out there who feel that being capped out is NOT FUN. This I think is the overarching issue here, not tactics, or how I should play to win ect. We all play this game to have fun and to different ppl that means different things.

Each of us have our own play-styles and want to play this game differently. The inherent problem with the current game type is that the current play-styles are in conflict with each other only allowing either one play-style to have fun or the other but not both. This i think is the major flaw in the current game system.

Light/Scout Side:
(Bear with me I have not played many light mechs and will admit they are not my play-style so I am going off of the others have voiced and observations on how most lights are played in the games that I have been in). It seems that those of you who like this type enjoy the thrill of sneaking around, doing hit and run tactics and generally disrupting the battle field. This also includes cap/tapping bases to do this, it is just another tool in your arsenal to do so. Also since this is what you have chosen it is obvious that you don't want to be slow or just try to slug it out with the others heavies. Its quite obvious you chose this class to do something with a purpose. Great glad to see you are doing what has been given to you. Asking any class of mech to not use every advantage to win the game is just dumb.

Heavy/Assault Side:
This by far is my playstyle and I understand your frustration. What you light/scouts must understand is that when you strap on a 100 ton mech you want to play it a certain way. When someone builds that D7 Atlas they want to get in there and blow stuff up, they didn't put those PPCs/ACs/LRMs on their mech to run around looking at it, you put that stuff on there for one thing blowing the crap out of any other mech you see. Granted the meta game is always changing and there are different ways of going about doing this but in the end that pretty much sums it up.

The problem is that one play-style denies the "fun-factor" of the other. A really skilled scout can end the game before there is any real fighting, making you have to turn around or lose really fast. As I mentioned earlier this wasn't the reason why we as heavies and assaults play this game. On the other hand making lights go toe to toe or any other head on fighting I would imagine kill their fun-factor as well since that is not why they were playing that class in the first place. What the developers need to do is go back an analyze the game type so that doing something that was designed for one class doesn't make it un-fun for other classes and vice-versa.

What needs to be Fixed:
The name. Last timed a checked assaulting is not running into a designated space and standing there. Think about it if you ran over to your neighbors driveway and just stood there, there would be no judge or law-enforcement agency that could charge you with any type of assault charge (maybe trespassing or get slapped with a restraining order lol). Point is that most of us have certain expectations of what assaulting is and its mostly regarding as fighting. So what happens is that when those of us want to fight and don't get to and/or denied to, because a mech who can run really fast stands in some desgnated box, we feel cheated and then the flames and whining starts. To fix this you the devs should either call it something else so that we don't go into the game with unrealistic preconceived notions or imo get rid of those stupid capture points and make it a base to destroy. Essentially the same thing but much more assault like. Now I know that this in of itself would not change anything but at least we would all have a better idea of what the match is expected to be

Give light/scouts something else to do besides holding the match hostage for everyone else. That is essentially what happens when a scout runs immediately to cap: either cave in to our demands or we will end the game for everyone. I can almost guarantee you that is how most heavies/assaults see you as, just some one who is trying to ruin our fun of destroying other mechs when in fact you are just playing the way it was designed (most of you i am sure, though there are always griefers out there). The problem is that in achieving the goal of what a light mech is supposed to do it seems the most effective way to do that is to use this cap/tap game play (this is a purely just observational, so I could be totally off).

Any way thanks for the poll Atheus, gave me a chance to give my feed back with what I have thought were major flaws in the current game type.

[Hellen Wheels]

Defend your base. Have a nice day.

[Atheus]

Hellen Wheels, on 25 May 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Defend your base. Have a nice day.

Dropping in with a worn-out one-sentence suggestion like this is asinine and unhelpful, even if you put a "Have a nice day." at the end of it. I could just as easily command you to "don't attack undefended bases" with the same result, because the problem isn't the players, it's the fact that both available game modes have the same mechanic that certain players want nothing to do with. You may as well tell scuba divers to practice their water polo. They don't like water polo, they like diving. You telling them to play water polo isn't going to make them want to do it any more, or enjoy it if they are compelled to do it otherwise.

In response to Downpoison's proposal to just rename Assault, I'll suggest "Absurd" - or something like that. One side of an armed conflict can completely ignore the enemy force and stand in a magic box to claim victory, then stop time to avoid any possible retaliation.

Well, we killed seven of the eight enemy mechs, but there's a Raven that stood near our mining platform for a minute at the end there, so we had better go home now. This battle is lost! Leave the salvage for the Raven, and don't go capturing the enemy's identical mining platform now, even though there's nothing that Raven could do to stop us; because those are the rules!

Edited by Atheus, 25 May 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

Atheus, on 25 May 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Dropping in with a worn-out one-sentence suggestion like this is asinine and unhelpful, even if you put a "Have a nice day." at the end of it. I could just as easily command you to "don't attack undefended bases" with the same result, because the problem isn't the players, it's the fact that both available game modes have the same mechanic that certain players want nothing to do with. You may as well tell scuba divers to practice their water polo. They don't like water polo, they like diving. You telling them to play water polo isn't going to make them want to do it any more, or enjoy it if they are compelled to do it otherwise.

In response to Downpoison's proposal to just rename Assault, I'll suggest "Absurd" - or something like that. One side of an armed conflict can completely ignore the enemy force and stand in a magic box to claim victory, then stop time to avoid any possible retaliation.

Well, we killed seven of the eight enemy mechs, but there's a Raven that stood near our mining platform for a minute at the end there, so we had better go home now. This battle is lost! Leave the salvage for the Raven, and don't go capturing the enemy's identical mining platform now, even though there's nothing that Raven could do to stop us; because those are the rules!

It's called Tradzies. The only war where taking an enemy base two seconds before he takes yours is anything but a huge screw up for both forces.

Someone made a suggestion way back that if you are standing in their base and they were standing in yours then neither base goes down. This solves the issue of both team's lights being all gung ho about capping but not about cap defense. It also forces a confrontation to end a cap trade statemate. Hell it almost sounds like fun.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 25 May 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

silentD11, on 05 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Capping is combat skill.

Baloney.

In all my years of military service, the capping of a base has never been considered a combat skill, it is a tactical maneuver intended to deprive the enemy of resources. In any such instance, the base is capable of defending itself with personnel and materiel. Since when does splitting up a lance make good tactical sense, especially when in MW:O when the base does not have its own defenses.

It's capture the flag, a game reserved for lights. I'd rather TDM, instead.

Base cap without any engagement, however legitimate a "tactic", is as loathesome as Trolling someone in the forums is - I do not consider it competitive. Easily 50% or more of the matches I drop in end in Cap.

[Atheus]

Keifomofutu, on 25 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

It's called Tradzies. The only war where taking an enemy base two seconds before he takes yours is anything but a huge screw up for both forces.

Someone made a suggestion way back that if you are standing in their base and they were standing in yours then neither base goes down. This solves the issue of both team's lights being all gung ho about capping but not about cap defense. It also forces a confrontation to end a cap trade statemate. Hell it almost sounds like fun.

I don't know about fun, but it creates another silly scenario where all remaining mechs are standing on enemy bases and can't leave it for fear of getting capped out while crossing the map. I think the magic boxes are just a goofy component for a game which is supposed to involve territorial warfare. If they want to involve "defending" bases or structures, it should be a little more involved than an arbitrary magic box that responds to a mech standing on it.

[The Wolfpack75]

Base cap needs a timer before being accessible (5 Minutes? or it is available the last 5 of the match?)

I don't think it should be eliminated altogether due to the rare games where you have two mechs left and due to sustained damage both have a medium laser to whittle away at each other.

If one is a light and the other is a heavy I would have no problem with the light running for the base cap. At that point it is a tactical decision - the light is more likely to die before the heavy.

As a strategy to pull people back from the middle to protect the base I can see the value - I am sure I've lived through a match (and won) because of that capping diversion. But it is not a good reason to keep bases - if it is the only reason voiced.

Otherwise I find people who rush to cap the base selfish gamers - only the mech who captures the base really gets any points (beyond the standard win bonus) and that token at best. Compared to the haul you receive from a combat win I don't know why anyone would cap a base - if they are a team player.

Perhaps the dev's should throw us another game type - Team Deathmatch (assault w/no bases). Would be nice to have more than Assault and Conquest.

[The Wolfpack75]

Base cap needs a timer before being accessible (5 Minutes? or it is available the last 5 of the match?)

I don't think it should be eliminated altogether due to the rare games where you have two mechs left and due to sustained damage both have a medium laser to whittle away at each other.

If one is a light and the other is a heavy I would have no problem with the light running for the base cap. At that point it is a tactical decision - the light is more likely to die before the heavy.

As a strategy to pull people back from the middle to protect the base I can see the value - I am sure I've lived through a match (and won) because of that capping diversion. But it is not a good reason to keep bases - if it is the only reason voiced.

Otherwise I find people who rush to cap the base selfish gamers - only the mech who captures the base really gets any points (beyond the standard win bonus) and that token at best. Compared to the haul you receive from a combat win I don't know why anyone would cap a base - if they are a team player.

Perhaps the dev's should throw us another game type - Team Deathmatch (assault w/no bases). Would be nice to have more than Assault and Conquest.

[Pando]

Pater Mors, on 05 May 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

I think you're misrepresenting Neverfar a bit there. His tactic is to begin a base capture to draw some of the enemy team back from the front line and split the enemy force. Yes, he occasionally captures early when people cry like little girls just to annoy them (which is admittedly a bit trollish, but I can't say I blame him), but splitting the enemy team is a perfectly valid and good tactic to use. I started doing it last night and won nearly every game I played.

If people want to continue playing "MechWarrior: British Redcoats" edition, then that's what's going to continue happening.

Very good tactic. When we don't have enough for an 8's que and we're dropping a group of 4's, a very sneaky thing I love to do is have 1 of our 4 stand on the cap. We'll draw 1-2 back and quickly dispose of them. By the time the enemy team figures out whats going on we're up on kills and capping their base.

I get money. I get the win. Your planet is belonged to me now. Gee gee.

Edited by Pando, 01 June 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[Braidedheadman]

Rather than having captures result in an automatic win/loss for either team without explanation, why not make it so that captured assets result in some sort of a score multiplier at the end of the round? If the need to assault/defend a home base arises out of some economic incentive rather than a boring, plain old, "lol, you lose, n00bs!" screen, it might give people more reason to both attend to the map objectives AND shoot down their enemies in order to maximize their potential income and XP gains.

The thing that I feel is missing from base captures is the home team's ability to restore their base's cap slider to a fully protected state and, tying that in with the above, thereby reducing the enemy team's score multiplier while increasing their own, incentivising defense.

Such a system, I forecast, could see the emergence of a more layered battlefield with bigger, slower heavies perhaps staying closer to home in order to discourage the smaller, faster lights from raiding the flanks whilst the mediums push the line of engagement closer to the enemy base of the prevailing team.

Edited by Braidedheadman, 01 June 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Gazbo]

I think the issue isn't so much the cap-rush, its the cap-swap.
ie Where both sides unknowingly take opposite flanks, and then end up having to cap as there is nothing to engage!
..I mean who is going to search for the enemy when they've just stepped onto YOUR base - especially in a bunch of slow heavies?

Another issue is not being able to react or reach the 'cappers' to make any difference as most 'Assault' drops these days tend to be heavy/assault class.

So some ideas around this...
a) Proximity warning: Tripped when enemy movement is detected on 'your' side of the map
Satellite intel: similar to seismic (though more vague), covers a wide area around your base
c) Central base: Perhaps a central base that team fight over
d) Automated base defences: Each base has a mix of auto defences that need to be destroyed in order to enter the cap area. Not hard for a heavy ranged mech, but trickier for light ninjas

Though more game modes would be awesome. Perhaps a mix of some of the above?
Just some thoughts...

Keep up the great work PGI.

- Gazbo

[Sephlock]

Just had a game where the entire enemy team was right there (on the far side of upper base on River City- near the base side of the bridge) and did nothing as I sat on the cap point until they lost.

Yes, they were fighting my teammates, but no one bothered to come stop me.