11 replies to this topic

[RF Greywolf]

Hey guys,

I've been running a Jag-S for a couple days (actually like it more than my Cent) now with moderate success and was hoping some of you had some ideas to tweek it a little bit. I've kept the stock weapons and just upgraded the rest to newer tech. The mech is nice in it's role as a direct fire support platform and handles well enough if someone gets to me but it seems like I keep getting dropped with only a couple hits. Any Ideas?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2e28ea90ac9d798

PS: Please no "You need AC/20's!"

Thanks
Greywolf

[thecrimsonchin8]

Never store ammo in the CT or a torso without CASE (really just never do it if you can avoid it). Put it in your legs and cockpit. That's why you're dying so fast, as soon as you lose your armor the ammo explodes and takes out your XL engine.

[Wintersdark]

thecrimsonchin8, on 06 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Never store ammo in the CT or a torso without CASE (really just never do it if you can avoid it). Put it in your legs and cockpit. That's why you're dying so fast, as soon as you lose your armor the ammo explodes and takes out your XL engine.

This is wrong, for a few reasons.

Ammo is unlikely to explode: a 10% chance per item, and only when either the part holding it is destroyed or the specific bin takes 10 critical damage. Ammo in your Center Torso is very unlikely to be destroyed before your CT is, as your engine can take critical hits as well (but isn't destroyed by them, even if reduced to zero health), so incoming crits can hit two different ammo bins AND the engine. It can happen, but it's pretty unlikely to have a CT ammo explosion.

CASE doesn't prevent ammo explosions. It prevents them from spreading to neighboring sections. As such, CASE in a side torso with an XL engine is useless. The ammo can still explode, and if it does and destroys your side torso, you'll die anyways (but the CASE will protect your center torso! lol)

He's probably dying so fast because he's using an XL engine Jager that requires high time on target, so he's pointing that huge wide torso at his enemies and taking a lot of fire while he's attacking. It's a very significant flaw for the platform. People will target his side torsos, knowing he's packing an XL, so they only need to cut through 45 armor to start into the side torso.

[Raso]

With out having to change your engine here's an idea. Dual AC10s and quad medium lasers. (just drop FF armor)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...efc415e2f207fed

The AC10s have good enough range to use from a distance and can pick the side torso armor off of an AC40 Jager from a safe distance. The medium lasers provide extra mid range punch (only use them in their effective range to keep your heat under control). Because you are less dependent upon a constant stream of bullets you can also torso twist to a larger degree allowing you to shield your self from incoming attacks with your arms or spread the damage across your body. The AC10s also work well as a mid range direct fire support weapon.

[RF Greywolf]

thecrimsonchin8, on 06 June 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Never store ammo in the CT or a torso without CASE (really just never do it if you can avoid it). Put it in your legs and cockpit. That's why you're dying so fast, as soon as you lose your armor the ammo explodes and takes out your XL engine.

Actually, I have died by ammo explosion once in the past week.

Wintersdark, on 06 June 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

He's probably dying so fast because he's using an XL engine Jager that requires high time on target, so he's pointing that huge wide torso at his enemies and taking a lot of fire while he's attacking. It's a very significant flaw for the platform. People will target his side torsos, knowing he's packing an XL, so they only need to cut through 45 armor to start into the side torso.

Good point. I sensing that XL engines are only for lights...

Raso, on 06 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The AC10s have good enough range to use from a distance and can pick the side torso armor off of an AC40 Jager from a safe distance. The medium lasers provide extra mid range punch (only use them in their effective range to keep your heat under control). Because you are less dependent upon a constant stream of bullets you can also torso twist to a larger degree allowing you to shield your self from incoming attacks with your arms or spread the damage across your body. The AC10s also work well as a mid range direct fire support weapon.

I'll have to give that a try. I have been thinking about trading the Twin AC arms for a larger single weapon. My only problem with that is it looks cool putting that withering amount of lead towards the enemy.

Thanks for the advice and I would gladly accept any more that anyone will give me.

Greywolf

[Kiiyor]

I love the Yager. Amazing mech. The ballistics you have are good, but the differing projectile speeds (2000 for the ac2, and... Less for the 5) can hurt your ability to apply dakka. I would recommend switching out the ac2s for another 5, if you can handle the asymmetry. The new buffs to ac5s are actually pretty good. You'll net yourself an extra 4 tonnes to spend on murder fuel for your guns, or any other less important additions.

Also, in my experience you don't need anywhere near max armour on your arms, as they have teeny tiny little hit boxes from the front. I run 25ish and am barely ever declawed by anything other than a lucky hit. I also do the same for legs, as I find that putting them behind a hill gives them amazing survivability, but lights can ruin your day if they are feeling particularly ankle-bitey.

[Dr B00t]

xl engines are only good on certain mechs...i only use them on commando cuz its a great scout killer...and catapult since side torso hitboxes seem small on it an they always aim mid anyway...stalker might be another good one

[Raso]

Dr B00t, on 06 June 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

xl engines are only good on certain mechs...i only use them on commando cuz its a great scout killer...and catapult since side torso hitboxes seem small on it an they always aim mid anyway...stalker might be another good one

I would only advise the use of an XL on Jagers who will preform a long range support role.Dual Gauss Jagers or LRM/PPCs JM6-As are prime candidates for XL engines.

Dual AC20 jagers also tend to run an XL. Use that to your advantage when fighting them and if you have the distance pick their side torsos apart.

[Spheroid]

Bad ammo placement. Spread it out so you never have more than one ton in a single body segment. What is killing you is having two tons of the same type of ammo, probably the AC-5 in the right torso with only a medium laser as a crit buffer. The probability of at least one of the bins exploding is 20% which in my opinion is pretty high. Use your head slot and leg slots to reduce risk.

Edited by Spheroid, 06 June 2013 - 09:13 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Spheroid, on 06 June 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Bad ammo placement. Spread it out so you never have more than one ton in a single body segment. What is killing you is having two tons of the same type of ammo, probably the AC-5 in the right torso with only a medium laser as a crit buffer. The probability of at least one of the bins exploding is 20% which in my opinion is pretty high. Use your head slot and leg slots to reduce risk.

If he's running an XL, putting more ammo into the same location isn't a problem. The probability isn't additive (thus 10 ammo in a location does not have a 100% chance for one to explode) and the more ammo in a location, the harder it is to destroy any of it (the ammo crit pads itself that way). Having more ammo in a location is dangerous if that location is destroyed, though: If you had 3 tons of ammo in your left torso and the left torso was destroyed, each of the three tons tests to see if it explodes (10% chance for each)... but as he's running an XL, it's irrelevant as he's dead due to the loss of the torso section even before ammo has a chance to explode.

Still, I'd move ammo to the head and legs anyways as nobody ever legs heavies. But my point is, even with ammo in his torso, the odds of dying to an ammo explosion in the side torso are low; in the center torso they're remote. The head's even better - it's VERY hard to destroy an ammo bin in the head without destroying the cockpit first, and even if you somehow manage to do so it's still only a 10% chance.

As to XL's:

It's a complex question that depends on the chassis, role, and type of weapons used.

General rules of thumb:

-- If you want to brawl, take a standard engine. Quite simply, staying alive under heavy close range fire (which, unless you're REALLY low Elo, never misses) requires a standard engine.
-- If you are using fast cycling weapons - AC5's, 2's, machine guns, etc... you want a standard engine. This is because you need to stay pointed at your target to keep your DPS output up, and you can't twist your torso to spread incoming damage without giving up a lot of damage output.
-- If you are using slow cycling, powerful weapons such as AC20, Gauss, PPC's, LL's, then XL's are much more attractive. This is because you can fire, then (for most) simply turn away for 4 seconds while your weapons cool down, turn back and fire again. This movement spreads incoming damage and makes it much harder for your opponents to pick off a side torso, particularly at range.

I know I tend to run more XL's than I should, but I just love fast and hitty mechs. If you're running an XL, particularly in a Jagermech, you need to be aware of the vulnerability of those gigantic side torsos.

[Spheroid]

^The probability is additive in this case. Ask any professional math guy on these forums and they will agree with me. The probability of A or B happening is A + B. Also the ammo placement is bad because having two tons of the same type ammo means that it takes twice as long for either bin to reach empty status, something that would not happen if mixing dissimilar ammo types.

[Mofwangana Bogogono]

Spheroid, on 07 June 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

^The probability is additive in this case. Ask any professional math guy on these forums and they will agree with me. The probability of A or B happening is A + B. Also the ammo placement is bad because having two tons of the same type ammo means that it takes twice as long for either bin to reach empty status, something that would not happen if mixing dissimilar ammo types.

No to get pedantic, but the probability is NOT additive. The probability of A OR B happening is (1 - NotProbA*NotProbB) in other words, its calculated by subtracting the probability of neither one happening from the total probability. So, the probability of A OR B happening in this case is 19% (1 - 0.9 * 0.9), not 20%. For three ammo canisters, it's 27%. Where it really matters is with larger numbers of canisters. Ten ammo canisters have a 65% chance of exploding, not 100%.

- Professional Math Guy