46 replies to this topic

[zraven7]

Shadowsword8, on 06 May 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

If you want to bring realism, firing an AC20 while in the air would cause your mech to violently drift backward, while spinning on itself (guns are on the side), and you would land on your butt or your stomach. It would be perfectly logical for mech designers to prevent such a scenario by adding a safety on the mech by preventing weapons from firing without a stable position.

Let's keep realism out of it.The fact is that poptarting is more efficient, but less fun for everyone, and fun is the one thing that will keep the game alive, so it need to be nerfed back to the point where it is the exception, not the norm.




It would be ineffective. Start jumping while behind a tall cover, by the time you're locked you've already shot. And you'll be back on the ground behind cover by the time the LRM reach your position.

The mass of the mech would be more than enough to absorb the reactive force of the AC20 firing, especially with jump jets firing. As far as the LRM's, simply increasing their arc a bit would help with that, and constant volleys would act as covering fire, keeping jump-snipers from jumping for fear of the next volley hitting them. They'd be forced to hide or to hunt for the spotter.

[Joseph Mallan]

Actually my eyes do see my nose... just a little.

The Neurohelmet explanation is fine for normal movement but jump Jets don't "jump" they rocket into he air. We should not be shooting from the air. That is the arena of fighters and LAMs

[Kommisar]

I use the jump jets in my Spider A LOT. A LOT, A LOT. And I fire while I am in the air quite a bit. Mind you, most of the time, I'm also moving horizontally at some speed between 100 and 150 kph. This is how I survive when I have screwed up and gotten in to deep in a brawl. Or, how I can survive against a Raven 3L or Streakmando. In the later case, this is the ONLY advantage I can leverage. Getting vertical on them and making it harder to keep that streak lock.

I can say that moving through the air at over 100 kph and hitting another moving mech at ranges over 300 meters AND nailing the landing without damaging my legs AND maintaining the situational awareness that allows me to make my next move upon landing instantly sans a big hole in my mech takes a lot of skill. And one that I do enjoy using.

And yes, our legs do take damage from falling. The voice saying "Fuel at 25%" is a life saver for me. Now, the bigger mechs have a lot more leg armor to take damage with. I'm not sure if the damage, right now, is based on your weight and is, therefore, proportional. But on my lights, if you are not careful you can quickly cripple yourself.

I really do not mind the pop-tarts. And I'm not even, technically, one of them. They move straight up, then they drop. They are typically really big target to boot. For me, they are like the ducks in Duck Hunt... but way easier to hit. Now, if you get 3 or 4 all focus firing on you and you have no support, yea; life sucks. But I argue that you life was destined to suck way before they started jumping. You got isolated and targeted by multiple enemy mechs.

OR, if you went to bum-rush a pop-tarter and found that they were all sticking together and now you have to take one like 3 Highlanders... I again postulate that your life sucking had nothing to do with them jumping; but with the fact that you are facing 3 assault mechs by yourself.

If you decided to sit out and return fire and try to out snipe the 3 pop-tarters... I go back to the exact same argument.

Almost all of the pop-tart hate stories I have read/heard generally involve someone finding themselves in a situation that is, by itself and absent the use of jumping, tactically bad. Like standing in the open. Remaining in a very bad position. Walking into a very bad position. Finding yourself outnumbered.

YES! Those mechs can hit very hard with all their PPCs! And, their builds can jump. Are we also going to have rage against me, in my Spider, from running between cover between shots and not letting the Stalkers I hunt have a return shot on me?

Except... most pop-tarts are very repetitive. They find a good spot and they use it. I know where they are going to jump up. But I am also not going to stand there and trade shots with him unless I know I have enough firepower lined up (by myself or with friends) to punish the crap out of him for poking up. I see a lot of guys that just decide they are going to stand and deliver. Again, poor tactical decisions here that have nothing to do with jumping.

I am not against some shake on the crosshairs to make jump shots a bit harder maybe. But there are other counters to stopping a mech that decides to expose himself in mid air. Some, I do admit take team work. Like calling out a target to your friends, waiting for him to jump, and then putting in 3 to 6 Gauss or PPC shots into him before his weapon mounts clear the terrain to return fire. Or getting fast lights behind them so they have something else to worry about. Or capping the ever loving crap out of their whole team for being slow. Or, having better snipers. My Awesome 9M doesn't jump, and I love pop-tarts. They are an easier target than I am in most situations.

Don't let the jumping blind you from recognizing the other poor tactical choices and situations that led to your untimely demise. Crying about jumping can just be blinding you from learning.

[hammerreborn]

OH LOOK ITS THIS THREAD AGAIN!!!

And OP, it's poptards, not poptarts. With a d.

Edited by hammerreborn, 06 May 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[zraven7]

Kommisar, on 06 May 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I use the jump jets in my Spider A LOT. A LOT, A LOT. And I fire while I am in the air quite a bit. Mind you, most of the time, I'm also moving horizontally at some speed between 100 and 150 kph. This is how I survive when I have screwed up and gotten in to deep in a brawl. Or, how I can survive against a Raven 3L or Streakmando. In the later case, this is the ONLY advantage I can leverage. Getting vertical on them and making it harder to keep that streak lock.

I can say that moving through the air at over 100 kph and hitting another moving mech at ranges over 300 meters AND nailing the landing without damaging my legs AND maintaining the situational awareness that allows me to make my next move upon landing instantly sans a big hole in my mech takes a lot of skill. And one that I do enjoy using.

And yes, our legs do take damage from falling. The voice saying "Fuel at 25%" is a life saver for me. Now, the bigger mechs have a lot more leg armor to take damage with. I'm not sure if the damage, right now, is based on your weight and is, therefore, proportional. But on my lights, if you are not careful you can quickly cripple yourself.

I really do not mind the pop-tarts. And I'm not even, technically, one of them. They move straight up, then they drop. They are typically really big target to boot. For me, they are like the ducks in Duck Hunt... but way easier to hit. Now, if you get 3 or 4 all focus firing on you and you have no support, yea; life sucks. But I argue that you life was destined to suck way before they started jumping. You got isolated and targeted by multiple enemy mechs.

OR, if you went to bum-rush a pop-tarter and found that they were all sticking together and now you have to take one like 3 Highlanders... I again postulate that your life sucking had nothing to do with them jumping; but with the fact that you are facing 3 assault mechs by yourself.

If you decided to sit out and return fire and try to out snipe the 3 pop-tarters... I go back to the exact same argument.

Almost all of the pop-tart hate stories I have read/heard generally involve someone finding themselves in a situation that is, by itself and absent the use of jumping, tactically bad. Like standing in the open. Remaining in a very bad position. Walking into a very bad position. Finding yourself outnumbered.

YES! Those mechs can hit very hard with all their PPCs! And, their builds can jump. Are we also going to have rage against me, in my Spider, from running between cover between shots and not letting the Stalkers I hunt have a return shot on me?

Except... most pop-tarts are very repetitive. They find a good spot and they use it. I know where they are going to jump up. But I am also not going to stand there and trade shots with him unless I know I have enough firepower lined up (by myself or with friends) to punish the crap out of him for poking up. I see a lot of guys that just decide they are going to stand and deliver. Again, poor tactical decisions here that have nothing to do with jumping.

I am not against some shake on the crosshairs to make jump shots a bit harder maybe. But there are other counters to stopping a mech that decides to expose himself in mid air. Some, I do admit take team work. Like calling out a target to your friends, waiting for him to jump, and then putting in 3 to 6 Gauss or PPC shots into him before his weapon mounts clear the terrain to return fire. Or getting fast lights behind them so they have something else to worry about. Or capping the ever loving crap out of their whole team for being slow. Or, having better snipers. My Awesome 9M doesn't jump, and I love pop-tarts. They are an easier target than I am in most situations.

Don't let the jumping blind you from recognizing the other poor tactical choices and situations that led to your untimely demise. Crying about jumping can just be blinding you from learning.

This is a somewhat scalding response, but entirely accurate. My jenner would be in a much, much sadder state were it not for my ability to fire while using my jets.

When I'm playing by myself, jump snipers can get frustrating. However, when I'm teamed up in a lance I'm on TS with, they really aren't that big a deal. You return fire and flank, like you would with any enemy. They are relying on one tactic. Use three others to make them upset that they did.

[Peter von Danzig]

+1

Shaking while using jump jets is more realistic and the heasiest way to bring back balance and finally to this game...

[zraven7]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Actually my eyes do see my nose... just a little.

The Neurohelmet explanation is fine for normal movement but jump Jets don't "jump" they rocket into he air. We should not be shooting from the air. That is the arena of fighters and LAMs

What about varrying degrees of shake, dependent on mech weight? I don't think a Spider would experience nearly as much problems as, say, a highlander.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dude. Really? My Gauss and other weapons do deter Poptarts.

I guess we should try shooting targets while jumping on a Bungee cord. It is a slow semi controlled "jump" See how well we can fire an air soft on target.

[zraven7]

Kirejara, on 06 May 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

HI,


why not make the damage depending on the fact if a mech is active or have been shutdown due to excessive heat.

By an active mech I would imagine that it is able to absorb the landing trough its leg joints like a human, which an inactive mech is unable to do.

Ya know, I'd be all for shut-down mechs taking double or triple fall damage, or having them suffer knockdown, once they re-implement it.

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Dude. Really? My Gauss and other weapons do deter Poptarts.

I guess we should try shooting targets while jumping on a Bungee cord. It is a slow semi controlled "jump" See how well we can fire an air soft on target.

Now, you know that's an unfair comparison. A person holding a gun on a bungy is not the same as a gyro-stabilized multi-ton bipedal weapons platform. That would be like comparing a kayak to a battleship.

[Joseph Mallan]

zraven7, on 06 May 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Ya know, I'd be all for shut-down mechs taking double or triple fall damage, or having them suffer knockdown, once they re-implement it.

Actually how do you control your fall in a shut down Mech(ie unconscious)? Extra damage would be a good idea!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 May 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[zraven7]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Actually how do you control your fall in a shut down Mech(ie unconscious)? Extra damage would be a good idea!

Someone posted a thread a while back talkig about re-implementing knock down only on mechs who shut-down mid air. It was a completely hilarious mental image, but really would help a lot. Landing on your CT 3 or 4 times would probably get someone to at least control their decent better.

[Kommisar]

I completely agree that a shut down mech falling back to the earth should be completely FUBARed. Not sure how they code that; but if they can, they should. And I'm a guy that makes really big, dangerous, someone-call-Micheal-Bay, jumps. If you shut down in mid flight, you are a lump of advanced metals and should fall like one.

I also think the damage should be very proportional to tonnage. Again, this could be a game engine / physics issue in implementing. So, I'm giving the Devs slack on this. Often the best ideas that sound so simple really are anything but when it gets down to coding it.

[Joseph Mallan]

zraven7, on 06 May 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Ya know, I'd be all for shut-down mechs taking double or triple fall damage, or having them suffer knockdown, once they re-implement it.


Now, you know that's an unfair comparison. A person holding a gun on a bungy is not the same as a gyro-stabilized multi-ton bipedal weapons platform. That would be like comparing a kayak to a battleship.

Well it is as close as a comparison as I could think of while eating! Well at least that didn't involve strapping rockets to my Ash!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 May 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[zraven7]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 May 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Well it is as close as a comparison as I could think of while eating! Well at least that didn't involve strapping rockets to my Ash!

Now I've got a mental picture of a guy with a chainsaw-hand and a shotgun fighting demons while zipping around on a jetpack. :-P

[Kommisar]

zraven7, on 06 May 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Now I've got a mental picture of a guy with a chainsaw-hand and a shotgun fighting demons while zipping around on a jetpack. :-P

I would SOOOOO buy that Hero Mech! Devs, are you listening? Chainsaw hands. LB10X. JumpJets with an Ash camo job. Blares out quippy one liners when you kill other mechs.

Price at whatever the heck you want. Sold.

[Appogee]

HybridTheory, on 06 May 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

Ok so here it is... simple way to solve the "issue" with pop tarts. Make it tougher to shoot while you jump. FFS the mech shakes when you jump in the air... shouldn't the target reticle jiggle a little too?

Completely agree. Made the same suggestion a few days ago.

Further:

1. Zoom should be ineffective while jumping, due to the massively amplified shake. And

2. Firing any kind of ballistic or missile weapon while airborne should push you backwards, due to recoil.

Poptarting is fine if that's the way people want to play. But being able to precision fire while poptarting is unrealistic. That's what needs to be fixed.

Edited by Appogee, 06 May 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[PerfectTommy]

Fall damage over, say, 10 meters should increase dramatically and apply equally to armor and internal structure.

That might help.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kommisar, on 06 May 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

I would SOOOOO buy that Hero Mech! Devs, are you listening? Chainsaw hands. LB10X. JumpJets with an Ash camo job. Blares out quippy one liners when you kill other mechs.

Price at whatever the heck you want. Sold.

Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart!

[MaddMaxx]

Not being a big jumper myself, are the different Mechs with JJ's using different JJ classes currently? Has anyone ever loaded a Class1 JJ set to see the difference it provides a Mech of the same weight using ClassII's.

If not there maybe some major tweaking that could be done with the current 5 Classes of JJ' available to the players, as the Chassis' go up in weight class.

Two major factors seen in the Files is boost_instant=and boost_z=

So when we see the relationship between mech weight and Class of JJ, as per the code files, the values scale quite similar.

JumpJets_ClassII – Tons=”1.0”duration="3.75" boost_instant="522.14" boost_fwd="0.1" boost_z="60.71" heat="0.1" minTons="80" maxTons="90"

80t – 6.53bi, .76bz
85t – 6.14bi, .71bz
90t – 5.8bi, .67bz

JumpJets_ClassI - Tons=”2.0” duration="3.75" boost_instant="614.29" boost_fwd="0.1" boost_z="71.43" heat="0.1" minTons="90" maxTons="200"

90t – 6.82bi, .79bz
95t – 6.46bi, .75bz
100t – 6.14bi, .71bz

So a ClassII JJ provides almost exactly the same bi and bz as the ClassI JJ but for 1/2 the weight. Now let's factor in how many JJ it takes to get max altitude and or hang time.

The CPLT (65t) and CFT (70t) series of Mechs get their max jump from 4 JJ's (assuming they stack to get the max.) whereas the HGN (90t) series get their max with 3 JJ and yet pay the same weight cost of 1 ton per unit.

I am unsure why the weight classes have overlap but maybe it just a Maths thing because why add 2t per JJ when 1t provides almost the exact benefit?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 06 May 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[zraven7]

Appogee, on 06 May 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Completely agree. Made the same suggestion a few days ago.

Further:

1. Zoom should be ineffective while jumping, due to the massively amplified shake. And

2. Firing any kind of ballistic or missile weapon while airborne should push you backwards, due to recoil.

Poptarting is fine if that's the way people want to play. But being able to precision fire while poptarting is unrealistic. That's what needs to be fixed.

The Zoom would be gyro-stabilized and digitally enhanced, and also stabilized due to the neurohelmet link. It would likely still work just fine.

The tonnage of the mech would absorb kick from the ballistics, especially with the JJ's providing counter-thrust.

Missiles would likely produce almost no kick. They provide their own propulsion, and the reaction mass (rocket fire) either passes out the back of the tube or, in the event of enclosed tubes, is vented. This is why military helicopters can fire missiles without spinning around or crashing or such.