53 replies to this topic

[Guru Zeb]

**WARNING WARNING WALL OF TEXT INCOMING WALL OF TEXT INCOMING WARNING WARNING**
for the text challenged amongst us

*blather can be skipped*
Ok guys i know this is hard ......... but this thread is genuinely intended to discuss an aspect of the game, not a crazy argument with people calling each other dishonourable or skill-less.
This is gonna be a contentious issue, but all am interested in is the opinions of people, it would be nice if people backed the opinion with some form of elaboration rather than merely, saying "This is BS" or "Right on bro".

Been thinking about this for some time and after watching the current MWO gameplay vids a few more times, and listening to some of the highly veiled comments coming from some of those in the beta, i feel compelled to post about it.
Before i start just let me say i have no personal preference for any one style of gameplay or gameplay mechanics, i just see some things happening that i think are going to surprise a lot of people.
Obviously am not a psychic and don't own a crystal ball, so am not stating any of this as FACT, just what i strongly suspect will happen. Feel free to disagree but please be civil, i don't expect polite but civil would be nice ... if you can't be civil please be highly amusing i can take any amount of harsh if am ROFLMFAO
*End of blather*

Ok am seeing a lot of people (many who didn't even play the game it seems) putting the smack down on MW4 due to the tactic that evolved of jump-sniping/pop-sniping/poptarting. For the purposes of this discussion i will refer to the practice as pop-sniping as i regard it as a no judgemental description of the practice.
Personally it never bothered me didn't us it much myself except in league matches, as in fun pub games I like to stay mobile and flank or keep moving and jumping.
IMHO it was a valid tactic that was a completely sensible approach to killing and not being killed. The tactic should not be confused with exploits involving distracted mech hit boxes ie:Ryoken jump exploit, or object occlusion exploits like hill and wall bugs.
IMHO the fact that it often gave other players little chance to defend themselves does not IMO make it a dubious tactic, just a highly effective one. But one thats pretty easy to counter as long as you can temper your eagerness for vengeance with tactical common sense.
Yeah i have been owned in some near impossible situations just as many times as many of you guys by pop-sniping Assaults boating ERLL/ERPPC/GAUSS. Was it annoying?? Hell Yeah did i ragequit or moan about it?? No. I take a robust attitude to gaming IMO you've gotta enjoy THE GAME not just winning the game
I only ever complained when players started spawn raping as i do regard this as a heinous abuse of the mechanics of gaming.

So that's where many of use have come from, MWO is going to be different.
Direct fire weps have had the behaviour altered/nerfed/modded the changes when bound up together seem essentially to make it much harder to impose HUGE amounts of damage on single mech locations, we can all agree on this yeah??
Now don't get me wrong am as ok with these changes as i was with pop-sniping in MW4 am all for different MW titles working to fix the failings of previous titles and bringing an individual flavour to themselves.
I do tend to think it will be interesting to see battles of attrition that last tens of minutes to resolve rather than seconds, i don't see this as better or worse ........ just different, am all for difference ...... am from Yorkshire we embrace diversity in all its forms

So am seeing a lot of people who are stating pop-sniping will not be an issue in MWO, the practice will be near impossible, and indirect fire weps and arty will solve the issue.

Am really no so sure about this myself, which is the slightly long winded point of this post. From what i see in the vids and what i have heard form some in the beta. We could easily have a situation evolve when pop-sniping LRM boats come to dominate the field. The inclusion of 3rd party target acquisition and persistent lock that is maintained even when LOS (Line Of Sight) is lost, surely will encourage this as a common tactic.

This what i believe could easily happen, as stated i have no crystal ball this is just me extrapolating from what i have been told and seen in the vids.

The age of pop-sniping direct fire weapons comes to an end, due to high levels of jump shot inaccuracy and much larger weps damage spread

Player soon discover that an LRM boat is a highly effective long range killer and with some half sensible manoeuvre and shot rinse and repeat tactics, they can achieve a high degree of success.

Scouts get wise to the new style of warfare and quickly learn all the best over-watch positions on all maps
giving a solid lock as soon as enemy mechs wander into range.

Direct fire Assaults and Heavies start to get pounded on a regular basis, due to their low speed and large target surface area and tactical requirement for LOS in combat. The only solution is Lights and fast Mediums, as seen a fast mech can evade missiles pretty well if it speeds to towards the origin of the missile launch.

Everyone loads up on Lights and fast Mediums, Heavy and assault missile boats become the only viable configs at that tonnage.
The game becomes the rather static one dimensional affair so many of the MW4 detractors apparently where at huge pains to avoid.
Am not personally upset or anything by this prospect as i see it the game will evolve as players find ways to be successful within the games confines and restrictions, i will adapt and enjoy no matter what ....... its just i see it quite possible that a vociferous minority not getting the game they think they will get

Just saying

So guys what do you think, am i nuts, am i cynical, should i go play CoD??

[Adrienne Vorton]

well the biggest problem any tactical-focussed game has?? players not beeing able to play them the way they were intended... thats the fear that i have, since this is free 2 play, too many "bääm in yo face" kiddoes raiding the game and making it a "rush ro the middle, last mech standing!" gameplay... and, seriously, there is nothing ANY game mechanic can do, to erase the error called human behaviour

[Arafinar]

Unless you can get missle lock from behind cover your point isnt valid.

Edited by Arafinar, 06 June 2012 - 04:35 AM.

[William Petersen]

My biggest problem with it, is that this type of game-play is not consistent with the way Mech combat is "supposed" to work, per the TT (or the novels, or any other sort of canon).

It's just stupid.


I don't think LRM poptarders will be a problem because of the reduced ranges making it easier to close on the poptarder. From what I've seen, JJs themselves seem to produce forward thrust, so there won't be any of this jump straight up, come straight back down bullshit (of course my observations could easily be in error).

[Blue Shadow]

Aaaaahhhhh!!! A massive wall of text just hit me in the face! ooww!

But to address your point, I agree pop-sniping is a valid tactic as long as your not exploiting a game bug or something. But I don't think that the game will be reduced to LRM snipers Vs fast mechs (in my opinion that is). But you might see anti missile systems becoming more necessary, but are you forgetting that LRMs in MWO wont have that crazy accuracy that I remember MW4 had - such as when the missiles would make impossible turns to hit the target? I always thought the accuracy and damage of the LRMs was the balancing factor too keep them for being OP? Something I'm sure can be tweaked by the devs before the games goes live if it's an issue.

And no, don't go play CoD!

[Nik Van Rhijn]

At the moment I'm not so sure it's a problem. The catapult is the main LRM boat at the moment (some of the other mechs do have LRM variants) and it only has limited ammo. We know that armour has been doubled (at lest for the moment) and that they were using TT ranges.
The only map we have seen has varied terrain which may make it hard for scouts to maintain LOS, especially if they are actively being hunted. To me the obvious tactic would be a varied compasny with mechs dedicated to hunting scouts and LRM boats. If LRMs were as dominant as you fear, then I think that the devs would have done something about it. Of course we don't know what is happenning in Beta, but you can bet that some of those playing will have gone through most of the optimisations that we can envisage to try and break the balance. Hopefully they have been able to get properly organised 12 v 12 battles going involving players who know each other.
Cynicysm is never wasted, especially if it merely turns out to be foresight. I would hope that your scenario does not turn out to be coreect, but the advantage of the game type is that it can be quickly rectified.

[Redshift2k5]

LRMs have limited ammo, require a lock or a spotter, and jumping to fire LRMs probably isn't going to give you time to get that lock and fire your salvo. If they have a NARC or TAG spotter, then you don't even need to jump, just fire over the hill.

The range is also shorter, and there is an inside minimum range where they're useless; Get up in that missile boat's face and blow up his ammo or blow his arms off.

[Guru Zeb]

Arafinar, on 06 June 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Unless you can get missle lock from behind cover your point isnt valid.

Have you even watched the Catapult video?!?!?

Did you also not read most of my post you can get target lock transmitted from your team mates as you can see in the vid LOS is not an issue as long as a team mate is painting the target .......... what was invalid again???

[Striker1980]

Redshift2k5, on 06 June 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

LRMs have limited ammo, require a lock or a spotter, and jumping to fire LRMs probably isn't going to give you time to get that lock and fire your salvo. If they have a NARC or TAG spotter, then you don't even need to jump, just fire over the hill.

The range is also shorter, and there is an inside minimum range where they're useless; Get up in that missile boat's face and blow up his ammo or blow his arms off.

Just what I was thinking.

[Arafinar]

Guru Zeb, on 06 June 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

Have you even watched the Catapult video?!?!?
Did you also not read most of my post you can get target lock transmitted from your team mates as you can see in the vid LOS is not an issue as long as a team mate is painting the target .......... what was invalid again???

Yes I had watched and it looked like NARC to me. ie: painting
Target location, doubt that you can get lock from just a lancemates visual.
If you think ya can, prove it.

Edited by Arafinar, 06 June 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[DaZur]

The truer obstacle to overcome is the inability for many to accept that this is not their daddy's MW game... It's clear PGI devs have played past MW iterations and know their limitations and areas of abuse. Equally clear is the fact they modified certain aspects to mitigate these same areas of issue, leaving us with a cleaner game experience...

It's illogical and impractical in a competitive arena to refrain from tactics that lead to victory over your opponent. As the OP eluded to we can effectively throw out virtually all preconceived game abuse as they are no longer relevant in this new endeavor. Will players attempt to jump snipe?... Yup. Will they try to hill-hump?... Yup. Will they try to boat and or min/max?... Yup. And I argue these tactics will be marginally successful, leading to development of newer and more insidious ways to win a match.

That's the nature of the beast... The goal is to win or win by achieving a goal... Neither of which can happen if you do not defeat your opponent. Battlefield tactics are exactly that... Something you do or a situation you create that allows you to triumph over your enemy. The whole argument that battlefield tactics are some how dishonorable and diminish the enjoyment of the game is nothing but indignant caterwauling... As I've said before, this is not the 1800's, we are not obliged to line up in straight lines, beat drums, toot fifes and allow the enemy to take clean shots at us... Lessons learned... This is gorilla warfare and we will utilize all assets and advantages to win.

IMHO...

[Gendou]

You don't think it's silly to try to judge gameplay based on video clips?

[RedHairDave]

there are also ams systems. if lrm boats become a problem, just put 6 ams and 4 tons of ammo. 7 tons total for almost total immunity to missiles.

[Redshift2k5]

RedHairDave, on 06 June 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

there are also ams systems. if lrm boats become a problem, just put 6 ams and 4 tons of ammo. 7 tons total for almost total immunity to missiles.

Yeah, this too; If the meta-game moves towards being dominated by LRMs, then a counter wave of large numbers of AMS will crop up and LRMs will fade down a bit.

[Guru Zeb]

Arafinar, on 06 June 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

Yes I had watched and it looked like NARC to me. ie: painting
Target location, doubt that you can get lock from just a lancemates visual.
If you think ya can, prove it.

You could have just stated that you thought locks where due to narcs in the 1st place
rather than being so pointlessly confrontational. The purpose of this thread was to discuss
the idea based on what info we do have.

I do not need to prove anything to you in order to voice and discuss an idea.
Could just as easily demand you prove lock was narc based ????
But am actually more interested in any ideas you may have.

tuddle pip old chap

Edited by Guru Zeb, 06 June 2012 - 05:30 AM.

[Arafinar]

Guru Zeb, on 06 June 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

You could have just stated that you thought locks where due to narcs in the 1st place
rather than being so pointlessly confrontational. The purpose of this thread was to discuss
the idea based on what we info we do have.

I do not need to prove anything to you in order to voice and discuss an idea.

tuddle pip old chap

lol that was no where near confrontational....lets see..
"Unless you can get missle lock from behind cover your point isnt valid. "
nope not seeing it. Have info. Apparently you dont.

[Arafinar]

Guru Zeb, on 06 June 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

You could have just stated that you thought locks where due to narcs in the 1st place
rather than being so pointlessly confrontational. The purpose of this thread was to discuss
the idea based on what info we do have.

I do not need to prove anything to you in order to voice and discuss an idea.
Could just as easily demand you prove lock was narc based ????
But am actually more interested in any ideas you may have.

tuddle pip old chap

LOl no thanks you just keep floundering around:)
See ya on the field.

[Regina Redshift]

The only thing that I'm afraid of: this game turning into a AC/10 fest like the old Battletech did.

Edited by Archwright, 06 June 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[Roland]

Based on the developer documentation regarding information warfare, I was under the impression that missile carriers were indeed able to get locks through teammates' contacts and not simply through narc beacons.

I'm pretty sure they specifically stated this.. that you can get a lock through a missile by targeting the red target box for a mech, even if you don't have line of sight to the target.

[Jack Gallows]

It's not going to be a problem, because you can use scouts to flush out that LRM boat, or your own fire support 'mechs are going to hammer them back since said scouts will be able to paint a target. As shown in the video's, LRMs launch on a high arc, I don't see pop sniping to be as big as OP makes it.