60 replies to this topic

[Skadi]

Dear god please no commandos with warp technology, not again, NOT AGAIN!

[skullman86]

Howdy Doody, on 10 May 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

More options = more combinations = more battlefield variety. Sounds good to me!

Looking forward to reading the negatives to this.

Except it will probably do the opposite, just like unrestricted hardpoints leads to everyone loading up PPCs, AC/20s, and Gauss every time a new mech is released. If multiple mechs of the same weight are capable of running the same engines, the one with the better loadout is guaranteed to be the one that everyone uses. Mechs of varying weights within the same class will likely have this problem as well, but it wont be as bad as mechs who have the same speed ratings.

35 tons

• Jenner
  
• Raven

50 tons

• Hunchback
  
• Trebuchet
  
• Centurion

65 tons

• Jagermech
  
• Catapult (only comparable variant is the K2)

Restrictions (when done right) give mechs better defined roles.

Edited by skullman86, 10 May 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

skullman86, on 10 May 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Except it will probably do the opposite, just like unrestricted hardpoints leads to everyone loading up PPCs, AC/20s, and Gauss every time a new mech is released. If multiple mechs of the same weight are capable of running the same engines, the one with the better loadout is guaranteed to be the one that everyone uses. Mechs of varying weights within the same class will likely have this problem as well, but it wont be as bad as mechs who have the same speed ratings.

You list the Jenner and Raven in your examples there. Currently three Jenner variants and one Raven variant are viable. Why? The other two Ravens are too slow to work. The only point of any real concern would be the Centurion being outpaced by Hunchbacks, but then the Hunchback will be carrying Centurion-esque armaments to fit the engine anyway.

[One Medic Army]

Gaan Cathal, on 10 May 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

[/size] You list the Jenner and Raven in your examples there. Currently three Jenner variants and one Raven variant are viable. Why? The other two Ravens are too slow to work. The only point of any real concern would be the Centurion being outpaced by Hunchbacks, but then the Hunchback will be carrying Centurion-esque armaments to fit the engine anyway.

It's fine for most mechs.
Then we have the 2 big problem children: Hunch-P and Hunch-SP.
Both have more/better hardpoints than and of the non-hunch mediums. They're smaller than both Treb and Cent. They need some downside, which currently is engine cap.
That said, the other G, H, and J aren't troublesome and could certainly get sped up without taking over anything else's role, even the P and SP could stand to speed up, so long as they got some negative quirks to balance out superior hardpoints.

[El Bandito]

Yes, I want my Atlas to go fast.

[Keifomofutu]

I dunno if I agree with an outright removal. But I do believe that medium limits across the board need to go up. Cents should all have the ability to pack in a 300 engine and hunchies should have the option of a 275.

EDIT:All awesomes need a higher engine cap as well. They performed so far behind every other assault in the tourney it wasn't even funny. They need to be the fastish assault again.

I feel this is necessary to give all the mediums are reasonable speed advantage over the fast heavies which they currently lack. A hunch going 92 isn't really any different speed wise than a cataphract going 86 with way more weapons.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 11 May 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Deathlike]

Sephlock, on 10 May 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Did they fix the netcode?

They have said before that lifting the speed restrictions would coincide with the release of the Flea and MASC.

It is best to revisit the question then, at the appropriate time. That is why I said what I said.

[One Medic Army]

Deathlike, on 10 May 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

They have said before that lifting the speed restrictions would coincide with the release of the Flea and MASC.

It is best to revisit the question then, at the appropriate time. That is why I said what I said.

Yup, and this is part of why the Flea isn't the next mech up, despite their release order usually going light->medium->heavy->assault. They're skipping Flea and going straight to Blackjack.

[Sephlock]

Skadi, on 10 May 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Dear god please no commandos with warp technology, not again, NOT AGAIN!

Btw, what is the fastest mech in Battletech canon, excluding LAMs? How about including them?

[Sam Slade]

No... wait for collisions and see what happens

[Gaan Cathal]

Sam Slade, on 10 May 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

No... wait for collisions and see what happens

A: This has nothing to do with collisions
B: Collisions are in the game, you mean knockdowns (which are dreadful)

[Keifomofutu]

Gaan Cathal, on 10 May 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

A: This has nothing to do with collisions
B: Collisions are in the game, you mean knockdowns (which are dreadful)

They are dreadful. Dreadful and terrible .

On an unrelated note can we get the grapple arm working on the awesome and dragon?
On another unrelated note what do you think about ragdoll physics for light mechs?

Edited by Keifomofutu, 10 May 2013 - 09:08 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Sephlock, on 10 May 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Did they fix the netcode?

Only one way to find out.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Voted No, and here's why: variant balance.

The engine-rating limit is fine as-is, as it makes sure that variants remain unique and with distinctive roles. The 4X Cataphract is the slow one, the 3L Raven is the fast one, and so on.

What should be changed once net code and HSR are improved enough to handle it is the artificial speed cap based on a multiplier of the mech's tonnage (tonnage x 8.5, rounded, determines max engine rating IIRC). This is what limits the Jenners and Spiders to going to same effective speed as the Raven 3L. This is the limit that will completely screw over the Flea when it comes out. Lights are the only ones who ever really encounter this cap (some super fast mediums might too, but with the lights its far more pronounced), and lights are the ones who will most benefit from an increased speed cap once net code and HSR improvements are able to handle faster absolute movement speeds.

[Keifomofutu]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 11 May 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Voted No, and here's why: variant balance.

The engine-rating limit is fine as-is, as it makes sure that variants remain unique and with distinctive roles. The 4X Cataphract is the slow one, the 3L Raven is the fast one, and so on.

What should be changed once net code and HSR are improved enough to handle it is the artificial speed cap based on a multiplier of the mech's tonnage (tonnage x 8.5, rounded, determines max engine rating IIRC). This is what limits the Jenners and Spiders to going to same effective speed as the Raven 3L. This is the limit that will completely screw over the Flea when it comes out. Lights are the only ones who ever really encounter this cap (some super fast mediums might too, but with the lights its far more pronounced), and lights are the ones who will most benefit from an increased speed cap once net code and HSR improvements are able to handle faster absolute movement speeds.

So when you reference the ravens you are actually telling us about how imbalanced the variant specific engine caps make the game. A slow raven is a joke. Putting ECM on the only fast one is even more imbalancing. Your example actually proves the OP right at least with regard poor variant balance because of engine caps.

[Livewyr]

Honestly.. that would be PGI's biggest mistake. (even bigger than ECM..)

I remember the days of 117kph 9Laser hunchbacks.. driving a jenner or a commando was pointless, unless you were TRYING to lag someone out at 200+ kph.

This game doesn't have to physics to implement what would happen if a commando going 190kph suddenly ran into the water, or ran over some boulders..

Heck it doesn't even really treat 150kph right as it is...

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Keifomofutu, on 11 May 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

So when you reference the ravens you are actually telling us about how imbalanced the variant specific engine caps make the game. A slow raven is a joke. Putting ECM on the only fast one is even more imbalancing. Your example actually proves the OP right at least with regard poor variant balance because of engine caps.

The fix to that is a multi-part one. First is making ECM lights no longer the only viable lights. BAP becoming a hard ECM counter does this. Second is to fix MGs. Doubling their damage and radically boosting their range will help with that. Third is to make Streaks not the only strong anti-light weapon. Increase the cool down period so they fire more slowly than standard SRMs and fix the guidance systems so they don't core the CT before anything else gets destroyed and you've fixed that problem.

Lo and behold, suddenly the 3L Raven, despite being the only fast Raven, is no longer the only usable Raven. The 2X is a high mobility weapon carrier, while the 4X is a dakka platform. They shouldn't have to compete at something that they can't hope to do as well in; they should find viable roles that they can fulfill well. Their engine restrictions thus push them toward what they should be doing rather than trying and failing to operate outside of their design parameters.

[LockeJaw]

No. You have a founders tag and should know

a ) the netcode can't handle it and

b ) prior to the introduction of chassis quirks, the only variation among the 50 ton mechs was hard points.

So no. No to trollmandos, no to 130kph hunchies, and no to 200+kph lights.

[Ralgas]

It's still a cryengine restriction as far we know, and i'm guessing it hasn't gotten much better given the delay of the flea and MASC.

[Trauglodyte]

You want to go faster because you just want to? Look, people need to quit trying to turn every mech into a gun toting Formula 1 racer. In TT, mechs were differentiated within with classes by loadout, weapon orientation, and speed. There is a reason why the Spider has so few weapons and it is because it was intended to be so blistering fast and maneuverable that you couldn't hit it. It is beyond pathetic that the Raven and the Jenner are as fast as the Spider because it just removes the primary benefit/design role behind the chassis.