64 replies to this topic

[Notick]

There's been a lot of discussion around PPC's and their 'Uber-weapon' status.

PPC's are a problem. Every video games has had a historical moment when some 'uber weapon' has been introduced, changing the meta-game to next to impossible to play without utilizing the 'Uber-Weapon' yourself. PPC's happen to be number two in MWO's current, yet short, history. Streak 2's were the first real 'uber-weapon' that we've experienced. (I don't count LRM's considering they didn't go on for Months on end, and were almost always hot-fixed relatively quickly)

The problem's that I see are: No ammo, Long and Short Range Capable, Damage to weight ratio & cycle rates, Heat Management vs. Damage Output is too high.

Currently with all other systems in place, there's absolutely no reason not to take the heaviest 'Mech you own, thanks to ELO not weight matching at all, with PPC's on board since they're so easily boated. Unfortunately, just like all other situations where things like this happen, there is no 'Rock to your Scissors'. The only option to beat it is to fight fire with fire, and rely on your ability to connect shots better than the other guy. So you end up in a game where everyone is in the same 'Mech, using the same load outs, and the game becomes stale. This has happened in the past with Streak-Catapults and the Raven 3L.

Now that HSR for Ballistics is in game, and those with Low Ping's are having a large issue with connecting shots even though you're receiving on-screen confirmation of hits, but the Paper Doll & reticle don't register the hits (I'm sadly one of these), it's gone to the same lanes as Ravens were back when Lag-Shields + Streaks were such an issue. However, even with all these other issues, the root issue still lies around PPC's.

So, with knowledge that PPC's are in-fact the 'Premier Weapon' of the Battle Tech universe, and with objective input without any elitism bias... How do we fix them for MechWarrior: Online?

Please discuss.

Edited by Notick, 10 May 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[Glaive-]

>Increase heat generation slightly
>Increase recharge/refire time

One or both of the above is all that is needed IMO.
But before that, I think it would be best to play with the upcoming missile buffs. Nerfing PPCs and buffing LRMs at the same time seems foolish to me.

Edited by armyunit, 11 May 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Aegic]

I think we should leave them as they are until full release. See how everything looks with PPCs and the upcoming content. Personally, as long as you play to counter PPC boats its not that hard (IE team communication, flanking, staying together and attacking together)

Boats usually have XL engines, are slow (not always true), and can fire at most 3 alphas before a hard shut down (unless consumables are used which is detrimental to anyone using it and trying to get Cbills)

Basically I do not think they are overpowered. If someone flanks a poptart Highlander with 2ERPPC/Gauss with a 2x AC/20 Jagerbomb for example the heavy should come out on top.

It will even itself out eventually and in the end at most I can see them boosting PPC heat by one MAYBE.

[Ravennus]

I love how people talk about how "OP" the PPC is, and how long it has 'reigned supreme'.

Bullox.



The PPC and ERPPC we have today, is the same it has been for months.
But have people considered them "OP" until recently? Not really, no.


In fact, at one time PPCs were the read-headed stepchild that no competent Mechwarrior would touch with a 10 foot pole.
True, they were never as bad as MGs or Flamers, but still.

That is why they had their projectile speed buffed.
But even THEN, it wasn't enough. People still wouldn't use them because they were WAY too hot.

Then they reduced the heat cost.
But even THEN, it wasn't enough. Sure, some people starting using them. They were a good weapon.... but the 6x PPC Stalker was still generally seen as a joke (and honestly still is IMHO).

Then they added an anti-ECM effect.
But even THEN, it wasn't enough!
You started to see them a bit more, sure. I used them because I realized they weren't so horrible and were pretty effective.
But even then, they were largely overlooked.


Why? Because of competing options.


LRMs covered the desire for long range, and were easier to use for some people (even though they were deceptively hard to actually SUCCEED with... but people like just waiting for a lock and shooting. No aim required).
SRMS and SSRMs covered the short range, and cost less tonnage and heat for comparable or better damage.
And again, you didn't need to be able to aim as well.


THEN, the LRMApocolypse happened. PGI messed up, and missiles were harsher than ever before.
As a "temporary" fix (which has gone on for a long time), they were practically nerfed into the ground and not worth their weight anymore.


Suddenly, without that major competition... people started using PPCs and yes, even ballistics.
By now, we also had larger maps with actually promoted a more long range (or at least, balanced) meta.


Once people got their heads out of their collective *****, they started realizing how good PPCs were.
Were they as good as a 90 alpha A1 Splatcat in it's heydey? Probably not.
Were they as good as a 70 missile LRM volley? Probably not.
Were they as good as 2x AC20s, 2x Gauss or any number of UAC5s? I still don't believe so, though there are merits and flaws to all those (PPC lacking ammo requirements is a huge boost).


Then HSR came in for ballistics (which included PPCs), and that really sealed the deal.

Not only were missiles insanely nerfed, but they are now the only weapon that doesn't have Host State Rewind.




TL;DR - PPCs have actually always been a good weapon, but many people were too enamoured by missiles and heavy hitting ballistics to really notice. Now that missiles are dead, ballistics have HSR, and we have bigger maps.... PPCs have made a comeback in a big way.

But for all that is sacred and holy, PLEASE WAIT until we have actually properly fixed the other weapons before we touch PPCs.
The big one here is missiles. Once those are fixed (and actually viable again), and have HSR... THEN we can look at the proper balance of PPCs compared to everything else.

Thank you.

[Bad Andy]

it's not hard to see there's a problem when ERPPCs are possibly the best sniping weapon at ranges of up to 1600 meters and still very good for brawling at up to point blank.

[senaiboy]

IMO the ballistics host state rewind is the major factor we see a surge in PPCs - people were not using it before then because you can't get a hit at long range with it. Now with pinpoint accuracy there's no reason not to use one of the longest range and heaviest hitting weapon.

Sure you can 'flank' a PPC boat, but when there's dozens of PPCs on their team you won't last a second once you're sighted, no matter how close you are.

Then again I think we should wait till LRMs are properly back in the game before PPC can be looked at. Tho I agree its heat should be increased (playing as a PPC Jager, PPC Cicada, and PPC Catapult with above average results).

Edited by senaiboy, 11 May 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[SjurWarEagle]

For em the main problem is, every damage gets into the same zone.
If PPC only were able to fire in chainmode, this would help a lot.

[Ralgas]

Up the heat on the er 1 point, then dump heat containment from the mech pilot tree to curb the alphaing somewhat

[maXe72]

Well, iam no BT nerd so i dont care if PPCs are on the numbers or not.

In MWO the PPcs feel right but its to easy to AIM with.

Fighting a moving target with ballistics need leading your weapon on two axis,
if it stands you have to adjust at least one axis for the range.
PPC simply need leading for fast moving targets, as it has no balistic flightpath and
the energy shock travels extremly fast.

An increase in heat and/or recharge time wouldnt fix this.
Poptarding wouldnt be affected and snipers simply have to stay a second longer covered
before giving you the next salvo.

Adjusting the flightpath and/or travelspeed would fix all the above said issues.

[VagGR]

Ravennus, on 10 May 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

I love how people talk about how "OP" the PPC is, and how long it has 'reigned supreme'.

Bullox.



The PPC and ERPPC we have today, is the same it has been for months.
But have people considered them "OP" until recently? Not really, no.

thats as far as i got to read your text wall friend....PPC are NOT the same thay have been for months, they were actually improved along with ballistics in the latest HSR update, making them pinpoint accurate.

now on the matter at hand.. a heat increase and a longer recycle time is all is needed. PPC sniping and poptarting should have a place in MWO, its a viable tactic (even though i dont like it) it should not be removed from the game just because its hard to counter at the moment...imo what needs to be done is some tweaking to reduce the ppc/poptarting phenomenon. heat and reload tweaks should do the trick.

im not in favor on a hard PPC nerf, but something needs to be done because the game is becoming extremely BORING......walk halfway across the map, you chhoose you building i ll choose mine and lets start jump shooting eachother, or the other variant: you choose you hill, ill choose mine and lets walk back - forward and shoot eachother. i dont think that any of us (against or in favor of PPC) thinks thats the idea of what mechwarrior should be....as i said, poptaring/ppc sniping should be in game but when 9 out of 12 players in round play like that, well.....cant get more boring than that

[ccccc]

VagGR, on 11 May 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

thats as far as i got to read your text wall friend....PPC are NOT the same thay have been for months, they were actually improved along with ballistics in the latest HSR update, making them pinpoint accurate.

If you'd bothered reading, you would have noticed that he described exactly that in his text, which is btw nicely structured and contains good arguments. So it's not a text wall at all. For your convenience there is even a tl;dr summary at the end. But taking more than two sentences in a row seems to be a problem, so I'll just

Edited by ccccc, 11 May 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Pinselborste]

Problem is the way heat works in the game, my awesome 9M with 3 ERPPC can deal less damage till overheat than a 6ppc stalker with less heatsinks, thats just wrong.


greatly reduce heatcap, and make heatsinks reduce a heat generated by weapons by a certain ammount depending on HS number and increase dissipation rate.

example: you have 10 HS, they reduce the heat generated from shooting by 10, wich means if you fire and the weapons would generate 10 heat, nothing would happen, but if you fire weapons that together generate 20 heat you would end up having 10 heat added to your heatscale.

also, heatsinks can only remove heat from weapons once every 3 seconds, that way you cant abuse it with a macro.

it would also help making SHS viable again since they could remove more heat from firing each 3 seconds than DHS could so you would have to choose between more dissipation or more heat decrease for weapons.

Edited by Pinselborste, 11 May 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[Aegic]

PPCs didnt start to become a "problem" until the Trebuchet launched with its decent tonnage and jumpjets. Thats when we started seeing alot of the pop tarts around. Catapracts copied. Then the Highlander launched and did the same.

I doubt it will be as dominant in the future with or without buffs and nerfs.

[ArmageddonKnight]

For the love of everything ..stop asking for weapon nerfs.

Stop and think for a moment. true balance comes from tweeking the things at the base of the Pyramid. The weapon itslf is not the Base of the Pyramid.

PPC's have nothing to 'fix'. 1 PPCo na mech ..fine ..2 PPC2 on a mech ..fine.. 3 again thats only 30 dmg and u r mech starts getitng toasty so a AWS 8Q with 3 PPC's is ok. 4 5 6 PPC's ..thats when thigns get rediculous, thats 40 to 60 dmg alpha's.

"But what about Highlanders with a guass and 2 or 3 PPC's?" they are only a problem beouse they are poptarts, and thats a discussion for elsewhere as the weapons are not the issue, poptarting is.

Ok back to PPC's.

To fix them look at the hardpoint system and/or Heat system. They are both at the bottom of the pyramid and will affect PPC's without screwing them up when u only use 1 or 2 of them on a mech.

Without going into detail...
The Hardpoitn system: Simply put in restrictions, what they are specificaly can/has be discussed in other threads, but the end result is ..no more PPC's boats, and no more Bloatboats/alphahotboats. Vwala PPC's fixed.
The Heeat System : Lower heat capacity , increase coolof speed. End result, Hot alpha builds become very hard to use, no more PPC's boats, or other hotalphaboats.


So people please, if u want somthing nerfed or buffed, look for the core changes first. The changes that could be done at the bottom of the pyramid to affect things at the top. Dont just go changing things at the top, beocuse ur just building on bad foundations.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 11 May 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[Canniballistic]

Let me add my log to the fire...

Aegic, on 10 May 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I think we should leave them as they are until full release.

Is that like... when they include all the missing weapons (swarms, streaks, ultras, LBX, thunderbolt, etc.), mechs with designs that change playstyle, clans (as were what... two years into the invasion now?), hot dropping into battle, conquest map, factions, real objective based game modes, etc., etc..

OT:
The ERPPC is 3 slots, no ammo required (so no asplosions), 7 tons and does 10 damage at up to 1620 range.
Now compare that to a similar ballistic weapon kids;
The AC 10 takes up 7(!) slots and requires ammunition (which explodes!) weighs 12 tons (remember thats before ammo ladies) and does the same damage at a range of 1350

If youre sitting on one of the many random mountains in the larger, newer maps taking hits from 3 mechs with at least two ERPPC's each... youre expected to be able to safely get to them?

The entire system that is used to ballance MWO should be called into question and whoever is making the changes.


TLDR: Slap whoever is in charge of ballancing MWO.

[sokitumi]

Canniballistic, on 11 May 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

The ERPPC is 3 slots, no ammo required (so no asplosions), 7 tons and does 10 damage at up to 1620 range.
Now compare that....

And how many heatsinks....zzz

[Aegic]

Canniballistic, on 11 May 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Is that like... when they include all the missing weapons (swarms, streaks, ultras, LBX, thunderbolt, etc.), mechs with designs that change playstyle, clans (as were what... two years into the invasion now?), hot dropping into battle, conquest map, factions, real objective based game modes, etc., etc..

It is whenever they say that the beta is done. Game development (among others) goes from multiple stages of alpha and then beta followed by a release version of the game.

If you follow the devs you will find that they are aiming for a late summer release.

As for your comment on ER-PPC vs AC/10 you left out that the AC/10 generates 3 heat per shot and has a recycle rate of 2.5 seconds. The ER-PPC generates a whopping 11 heat per shot and has a recycle rate of 3 seconds.

If you want to be able to shoot that just as much as the AC/10 without overheating you are going to want a whole lot more heatsinks. 37 single heatsinks to be exact, which would bring your total tonnage to make a ER-PPC have the same DPS as an AC/10 to 44 tons.

AC/10 with 10 heatsinks has sustained DPS of 3.32 w/5 tons of ammo and CASE @ 27.5 tons
ER-PPC with 37 heatsinks has sustained DPS of 3.33 @ 44 tons

This is just pure DPS comparison. The PPC disrupts ECM and has no ammo requirements. This allows for mechs who use hit and run tactics to operate better since they can poptart or peek around a corner and unload and then hide until their heat comes back down.

The AC/10 would be better for a brawler IMO since they will usually be in situations where they are not playing like that.

Edited by Aegic, 11 May 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[HarmAssassin]

The question has been answered a billion times, yet people keep asking the question as if they haven't been paying attention.

Solution:

Increase PPC / ERPPC heat back up to where it originally was.
Give REAL penalties for overheating.

Problem solved.

[Zerberus]

Can`t say it often enough and should have started a lot earlier:

Quit asking them to break /nerf new things instead of fixing what`s broken first.

For the record, I rarely use PPCs.

If your car has a flat tire and you`re forced to drive at 120kmh max on the spare, do you leave the spare on forever and upgrade the engine so you can go more than 120?

Because if you do, you`re just being stupid.

I do however agree that PPC heat should have never been lowered in the first place.

But why did that happen?? Exactly, "Devs, please break this too becasue weapon X is OP and we don`t understand that this will make this one OP at a later date but are going to whine until it happens"

One big, oblivious circlenerf.

Edited by Zerberus, 11 May 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Aegic]

HarmAssassin, on 11 May 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Solution:
Give REAL penalties for overheating.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Depending on how bad a mech overheats things like targeting, rate of fire and maybe even mobility should be affected (although one type of myomer muscle gets stronger when heatedhttp://www.sarna.net...Strength_Myomer). If they have ammo in their torso give it a small % chance to explode depending on how much they overheat (i.e. a mech that has 6PPCs that alphas when they are already at 95% heat threshold.)

Perhaps a chance to damage or destroy the weapon.

Maybe make mechs that overheat take torso damage even if they allow themselves to shutdown as opposed to being damaged only if they override.

Great point Harem!

Edited by Aegic, 11 May 2013 - 07:24 AM.