339 replies to this topic

[TheRulesLawyer]

Frostiken, on 06 June 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Incorrect, they actually do both.

LRMs do 1 damage each. However, damage is grouped into 5-damage 'blocks'. An LRM-20 will hit an enemy mech in up to 4 locations for 5 damage each. Hitting with 12 missiles will hurt a mech in three places, two for 5 damage each, one for 2.

It's a brilliant way to limit their power while still not being terribly strong.

I think you're confused about the definition of incorrect.

[BlackMoore]

Thank you for the thread. I was waiting for anything from E3 like I was a crack head. lol

[AceTimberwolf]

Alpha Six, on 06 June 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Hey Ace, thanks for the report.

I was wondering what was the control layout for targeting with the arms? The mouse controls the torso twist, but how do you position are mounted weapons?

Its all through the Mouse. As you target your reticule becomes independent and as your track and torso twist you you can aim with your arms and torso just with your mouse. It felt fluid. I liked it. Hopefully everyone else will too

[Radman]

Kobold, on 06 June 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

1) Why is "lrm spam" bad? In fact, what exactly is "lrm spam" and how is it different than "large laser/PPC spam"

2) Why shouldn't LRMs be used to destroy things? Where is this normative approach to weapon usage coming from?

3) I would be shocked if two CPLT-C1s could not defeat two CN9-As with equal skill pilots. You've got 50% more weight, and significantly more firepower at every range.

LRM "spam" is bad when when it detracts from overall game play by reducing matches to LRM snipefests. This is exactly what has happened in some previous MW games. Lasers/PPC's have other detriments mainly long load times, high heat, and/or damage over time.

LRM's can be used to destroy things but the damage is more generalized then focused. It also can take a little longer. In my opinion what most of us want is balanced game play so that no single weapon system is by default superior to all others and therefore gamers only take mechs with very specific load outs otherwise you can't win. Why is that difficult to understand?

Instead, balance means players can be equally effective with their weapon of choice rather than being pigeon-holed into choosing the "best" weapon.

As for Catapults vs Centurions. Would you say the same if the battle took place in a city? I wouldn't. I'd expect the Centurions to win that battle. No one mech is going to be best at everything in this game. That's why we'll have "role" warfare. Every mech will have its role. I for one am looking forward to it.

[BlackMoore]

Frostiken, on 06 June 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Incorrect, they actually do both.

LRMs do 1 damage each. However, damage is grouped into 5-damage 'blocks'. An LRM-20 will hit an enemy mech in up to 4 locations for 5 damage each. Hitting with 12 missiles will hurt a mech in three places, two for 5 damage each, one for 2.

It's a brilliant way to limit their power while still not being terribly strong.

So, what about up close and personal? Can you ALPHA strike a cat between the ears?

[Urulf]

Frostiken, on 06 June 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

1) Because campy weapons bring game pacing to a standstill.

2) "nobody likes a game where a guy half the map away is behind a hillside, waiting for a reticule to turn red, and pushing one button to win."

3) That they won wasn't the point. That it takes like 10 LRM salvos each to destroy them is.

1º If u can just ignore the long range support because the dmg it does is crap, why would "anyone" play a support mech to start with ? it will be a waste of a design and everything from the dev pov. If you do a sniper/ campy combo from ER LL and Gauss, does it deserve the same crap ?

2º LRMs range isnt great, they should be "relatively" near you to shoot, and a spotter to see u if they are behind a hill, that is take in account at the RNG for dmg cuantity at the number of missiles hits of each salvo, this is not a long range AC20, if fails half the missiles stadistically. Its "your" (generalizing here) fault to stay in the open, anyway, you will draw the fire of EVERYTHING in range that can hit you.

3º Its fine if the LRMs dont do great dmg locally, but it tear appart great part of the mech, leaving easy preys for your lancemates. That is what SUPPORT means on BT, soften the targets for the Brawlers, or finish an already beaten enemy mech, not destroy entirely an enemy mech from 100% to 0% (u should get cockpit down long before that if you are giving them mostly dmg from above, anyway)

[Radman]

I don't think anyone is implying that LRM damage should be so light as to be ignored.

[Frostiken]

Urulf, on 06 June 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

If u can just ignore the long range support because the dmg it does is crap, why would "anyone" play a support mech to start with

Why would anyone play a light mech? So you can pew pew an Awesome with your SRM-2 and then get one-hit-killed in return?

Quote

Its "your" (generalizing here) fault to stay in the open, anyway, you will draw the fire of EVERYTHING in range that can hit you.

If you do x you deserve y is literally the bottom of the barrel as far as balance arguments go. I'm not going to amuse that with a real answer. MWLL's gameplay sucks buttholes half the time because everyone is hiding behind hills and nobody wants to be the first guy out because he's going to take missile, gauss, and laser spam right to the face. Usually the only proper response to these 'tactics' is to missile, gauss, and laser spam them back, which is, as another mentioned, a huge degradation in gameplay, and makes the game **** overall.

Tabletop Battletech didn't have this problem whatsoever, because moving and firing were done separately, allowing you to break cover and move up close without getting instagibbed.

Campy gameplay is not good gameplay. Go play TSA in MWLL if you want that.

Quote

but it tear appart great part of the mech, leaving easy preys for your lancemates. That is what SUPPORT means on BT, soften the targets for the Brawlers, or finish an already beaten enemy mech, not destroy entirely an enemy mech from 100% to 0% (u should get cockpit down long before that if you are giving them mostly dmg from above, anyway)

Okay? I thought that was implicit when I said 'fire support'. You seem to have missed the part where some people here are butthurt that the Catapult required most of its ammo to bring down a heavily-armored medium. I'm saying that that's fine.

Edited by Frostiken, 06 June 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[AceTimberwolf]

And all i was saying was i felt alittle more "oomph" was wat it needed. not by much. be great if a missile guy tried it out.

[AceTimberwolf]

I think once you guys get your hands on it it might be okay. Again everything is just an opinion. For sure tho no one is going to say they are underpowered but once you guys try it out you might be okay with the DMG output.

[Urulf]

Radman, on 06 June 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

I don't think anyone is implying that LRM damage should be so light as to be ignored.

Looking at the Heavy mech video (catapult), the dmg done salvo after salvo is rather "low".
http://mwomercs.com/...deo/sWBOIh078aY

Lets do a breakdown of the video. 240 ammo to start with (that`s 120 per pod):
First salvo 4% dmg. 210 ammo left. (suppossing noone else hit the target) Warning the mech of the support fire.
Second salvo 0% dmg. 180 ammo left. Entire salvo lost due to the mech noticcing the support fire over him.
Notice the 4 med lasers fire, 1% dmg (if they hit, seems like yes).
third salvo 2% dmg. 150 ammo left. Not sure if the missiles even hit the target, there was another mech pursuing the target.
And Jenner target runs out of range.
It comes back to target sensor range.
forth salvo 0% dmg.120 ammo left. guess the target is effectively on range, but behind cover, but the pilot doesnt see it.

Another target appears nearish, change target:
fifth salvo 3% dmg. 90 ammo left.
Various Laser shoots, 2% aprox each fire salvo (seems maintained targeting on the enemy).

So the point is, just forget the LRMs weapons for their lack of "punch" and go full on lasers, they do more dmg in the long run, they dont run out of ammo (unless destroyed, like the rest ^^), and you just have to keep an eye on your temp.

[Robovski]

The counter to LRM barrages is to freaking close with the enemy. This is what you fast movers are for. If you allow the support LRM boat to lob off volley after volley blowing the crap out of your company's mechs you might just want to consider moving towards that boat at speed. It is a LONG range missile, you get under the minimum and engage. They don't need nerfing, they need tactics.

[Euphor Kell]

excellent!

sounds great as far as i am concerned, weapon convergance in the outer limbs will take a bit of getting used to (again) but i think its definately a GOOD thing i remember from mech2 means we don't have to worry about RNG on ranged accuracy, but skill and experience, even when the crosshair is on target.
good good good thing (damn, can't stress that enough)

LRMs should soften up a target, not kill it. they are a suppression weapon... much like LBX-AC (cluster ammo) are, while lasers and (U)AC's are killing weapons, while given a bit of luck, the LRMs *could* kill a target, i find it far more likely they'll strip it of armour first. leaving it ripe for picking by other lancemates.

oh, was there any sign of specialty ammo? (no i'm not talking "gold" ammo here)
i mean, Inferno SRMs, Cluster AC rounds, etc...

am i the only one intrigued by the fact that the First concept art showed a flamer weapon, but as of yet, i have not seen one in game?

[LackofCertainty]

Urulf, on 06 June 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Looking at the Heavy mech video (catapult), the dmg done salvo after salvo is rather "low".
http://mwomercs.com/...deo/sWBOIh078aY

Lets do a breakdown of the video. 240 ammo to start with (that`s 120 per pod):
First salvo 4% dmg. 210 ammo left. (suppossing noone else hit the target) Warning the mech of the support fire.
Second salvo 0% dmg. 180 ammo left. Entire salvo lost due to the mech noticcing the support fire over him.
Notice the 4 med lasers fire, 1% dmg (if they hit, seems like yes).
third salvo 2% dmg. 150 ammo left. Not sure if the missiles even hit the target, there was another mech pursuing the target.
And Jenner target runs out of range.
It comes back to target sensor range.
forth salvo 0% dmg.120 ammo left. guess the target is effectively on range, but behind cover, but the pilot doesnt see it.

Another target appears nearish, change target:
fifth salvo 3% dmg. 90 ammo left.
Various Laser shoots, 2% aprox each fire salvo (seems maintained targeting on the enemy).

So the point is, just forget the LRMs weapons for their lack of "punch" and go full on lasers, they do more dmg in the long run, they dont run out of ammo (unless destroyed, like the rest ^^), and you just have to keep an eye on your temp.

Nah, the point is "Don't blow all your LRM ammo shooting at a near-max range jenner running at top speed. Of course most of his salvo's missed. He was dumping his LRM ammo onto one of the speediest/most manuverable mechs in the game instead of waiting for something slower to appear.

Medium lasers are, of course, going to do more damage per weight. They also have less than 1/2 the range of LRM's and lack indirect fire capability.


P.S.
Thanks for the info, Ace. Really exciting to hear some real reports about the game. Hopefully PGI decides to throw us a bone sooner or later too. Also, I'm curious to hear more about the DFA's you did. Did you say the camera switches out to third person so you can see it better?

Edited by LackofCertainty, 06 June 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Radman]

Urulf, on 06 June 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Looking at the Heavy mech video (catapult), the dmg done salvo after salvo is rather "low".
http://mwomercs.com/...deo/sWBOIh078aY

Lets do a breakdown of the video. 240 ammo to start with (that`s 120 per pod):
First salvo 4% dmg. 210 ammo left. (suppossing noone else hit the target) Warning the mech of the support fire.
Second salvo 0% dmg. 180 ammo left. Entire salvo lost due to the mech noticcing the support fire over him.
Notice the 4 med lasers fire, 1% dmg (if they hit, seems like yes).
third salvo 2% dmg. 150 ammo left. Not sure if the missiles even hit the target, there was another mech pursuing the target.
And Jenner target runs out of range.
It comes back to target sensor range.
forth salvo 0% dmg.120 ammo left. guess the target is effectively on range, but behind cover, but the pilot doesnt see it.

Another target appears nearish, change target:
fifth salvo 3% dmg. 90 ammo left.
Various Laser shoots, 2% aprox each fire salvo (seems maintained targeting on the enemy).

So the point is, just forget the LRMs weapons for their lack of "punch" and go full on lasers, they do more dmg in the long run, they dont run out of ammo (unless destroyed, like the rest ^^), and you just have to keep an eye on your temp.

But damage in relation to what? By your own post you say 4 med laser hit but only do 1% damage? Seems to be LRM's are powered just fine. At best tweaking to amount of ammo or the doubling of armor needs to be tweaked. Also, I have absolutely no pity for a guy who shoots and misses. That's not the LRM's fault, it's the player's fault.

In TT we had the same ammo constraints so we didn't fire unless we were fairly sure of a hit. So here's a tip, don't waste your ammo.

[AceTimberwolf]

Euphor Kell, on 06 June 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

excellent!

sounds great as far as i am concerned, weapon convergance in the outer limbs will take a bit of getting used to (again) but i think its definately a GOOD thing i remember from mech2 means we don't have to worry about RNG on ranged accuracy, but skill and experience, even when the crosshair is on target.
good good good thing (damn, can't stress that enough)

LRMs should soften up a target, not kill it. they are a suppression weapon... much like LBX-AC (cluster ammo) are, while lasers and (U)AC's are killing weapons, while given a bit of luck, the LRMs *could* kill a target, i find it far more likely they'll strip it of armour first. leaving it ripe for picking by other lancemates.

oh, was there any sign of specialty ammo? (no i'm not talking "gold" ammo here)
i mean, Inferno SRMs, Cluster AC rounds, etc...

am i the only one intrigued by the fact that the First concept art showed a flamer weapon, but as of yet, i have not seen one in game?

No specialty Ammo. Someone used a flamer on me just as I was unloading an alpha laser strike from my hunch... Shut me down lol. Had to Override and Get the hell out of there.

[Mister Dubis]

AceTimberwolf, on 06 June 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

For the Most part most of the people there gave good responses. One of the guys said "I don't see a lot of kids playing this" Which might be true in the CoD era

i would rather not have kids play this game. those little buggers ruin everything such as CoD and Halo and they are the reason i dont play those games. plus they take no skill.

btw it was good to hear something about e3. thanks ace

[Radman]

LackofCertainty, on 06 June 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Nah, the point is "Don't blow all your LRM ammo shooting at a near-max range jenner running at top speed. Of course most of his salvo's missed. He was dumping his LRM ammo onto one of the speediest/most manuverable mechs in the game instead of waiting for something slower to appear.

Medium lasers are, of course, going to do more damage per weight. They also have less than 1/2 the range of LRM's and lack indirect fire capability.


P.S.
Thanks for the info, Ace. Really exciting to hear some real reports about the game. Hopefully PGI decides to throw us a bone sooner or later too. Also, I'm curious to hear more about the DFA's you did. Did you say the camera switches out to third person so you can see it better?

Agree, and keep in mind that 4 med lasers should do 20 pts of damage, so more than the LRM-15. LRM only generates 5 heat each for the POTENTIAL of 15 dmg compared to 5 heat and the potential for 5 dmg for the laser. LRM also gives much longer range. Seems to me that there are pro's and con's which is how it should be.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

AceTimberwolf, on 06 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

No specialty Ammo. Someone used a flamer on me just as I was unloading an alpha laser strike from my hunch... Shut me down lol. Had to Override and Get the hell out of there.

Good to hear that flamers are still the best answer to heat-sensitive loadouts. I wonder how trolly a Swayback kitted with flamers would be...

[TheRulesLawyer]

Radman, on 06 June 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

In TT we had the same ammo constraints so we didn't fire unless we were fairly sure of a hit. So here's a tip, don't waste your ammo.

Exactly. Who fires ammo based weapons on 11 and 12's?